The Colloquies of Erasmus, Volume I

Au. Why would he be buried also, and that so curiously, anointed with Myrrh and Ointments, inclosed in a new Tomb, cut out of a hard and natural Rock, the Door being seal'd, and also publick Watchmen set there?

Ba. That it might be the more manifest that he was really dead.

Au. Why did he not rise again presently?

Ba. For the very same Reason; for if his Death had been doubtful, his Resurrection had been doubtful too; but he would have that to be as certain as possible could be.

Au. Do you believe his Soul descended into Hell?

Ba. St. Cyprian affirms that this Clause was not formerly inserted either in the Roman Creed or in the Creed of the Eastern Churches, neither is it recorded in Tertullian, a very ancient Writer. And yet notwithstanding, I do firmly believe it, both because it agrees with the Prophecy of the Psalm, Thou wilt not leave my Soul in Hell; and again, O Lord, thou hast brought my Soul out of Hell. And also because the Apostle Peter, in the third Chapter of his first Epistle (of the Author whereof no Man ever doubted,) writes after this Manner, Being put to Death in the Flesh, but quickned by the Spirit, in which also he came and preach'd by his Spirit to those that were in Prison. But though I believe he descended into Hell, yet I believe he did not suffer anything there. For he descended not to be tormented there, but that he might destroy the Kingdom of Satan.

Au. Well, I hear nothing yet that is impious; but he died that he might restore us to Life again, who were dead in Sin. But why did he rise to live again?

Ba. For three Reasons especially.

Au. Which are they?

Ba. First of all, to give us an assur'd Hope of our Resurrection. Secondly, that we might know that he in whom we have plac'd the Safety of our Resurrection is immortal, and shall never die. Lastly, that we being dead in Sins by Repentance, and buried together with him by Baptism, should by his Grace be raised up again to Newness of Life.

Au. Do you believe that the very same Body that died upon the Cross, which reviv'd in the Grave, which was seen and handled by the Disciples, ascended into Heaven?

Ba. Yes, I do.

Au. Why would he leave the Earth?

Ba. That we might all love him spiritually, and that no Man should appropriate Christ to himself upon the Earth, but that we should equally lift up our Minds to Heaven, knowing that our Head is there. For if Men now so much please themselves in the Colour and Shape of the Garment, and do boast so much of the Blood or the Foreskin of Christ, and the Milk of the Virgin Mary, what do you think would have been, had he abode on the Earth, eating and discoursing? What Dissentions would those Peculiarities of his Body have occasioned?

Au. Dost thou believe that he, being made immortal, sitteth at the right Hand of the Father?

Ba. Why not? As being Lord of all Things, and Partaker of all his Father's Kingdom. He promised his Disciples that this should be, and he presented this Sight to his Martyr Stephen.

Au. Why did he shew it?

Ba. That we may not be discouraged in any Thing, well knowing what a powerful Defender and Lord we have in Heaven.

Au. Do you believe that he will come again in the same Body, to judge the Quick and the Dead?

Ba. As certain as I am, that those Things the Prophets have foretold concerning Christ hitherto have come to pass, so certain I am, that whatsoever he would have us look for for the future, shall come to pass. We have seen his first Coming, according to the Predictions of the Prophets, wherein he came in a low Condition, to instruct and save. We shall also see his second, when he will come on high, in the Glory of his Father, before whose Judgment-Seat all Men of every Nation, and of every Condition, whether Kings or Peasants, Greeks, or Scythians, shall be compell'd to appear; and not only those, whom at that Coming he shall find alive, but also all those who have died from the Beginning of the World, even until that Time, shall suddenly be raised, and behold his Judge every one in his own Body. The blessed Angels also shall be there as faithful Servants, and the Devils to be judg'd. Then he will, from on high, pronounce that unvoidable Sentence, which will cast the Devil, together with those that have taken his Part, into eternal Punishments, that they may not after that, be able to do Mischief to any. He will translate the Godly, being freed from all Trouble, to a Fellowship with him in his heavenly Kingdom: Although he would have the Day of his coming unknown to all.

Au. I hear no Error yet. Let us now come to the third Person.

Ba. As you please.

Au. Dost thou believe in the holy Spirit?

Ba. I do believe that it is true God, together with the Father, and the Son. I believe they that wrote us the Books of the Old and New Testament were inspired by it, without whose Help no Man attains Salvation.

Au. Why is he called a Spirit?

Ba. Because as our Bodies do live by Breath, so our Minds are quicken'd by the secret Inspiration of the holy Spirit.

Au. Is it not lawful to call the Father a Spirit?

Ba. Why not?

Au. Are not then the Persons confounded?

Ba. No, not at all, for the Father is called a Spirit, because he is without a Body, which Thing is common to all the Persons, according to their divine Nature: But the third Person is called a Spirit, because he breathes out, and transfuses himself insensibly into our Minds, even as the Air breathes from the Land, or the Rivers.

Au. Why is the Name of Son given to the second Person?

Ba. Because of his perfect Likeness of Nature and Will.

Au. Is the Son more like the Father, than the holy Spirit?

Ba. Not according to the divine Nature, except that he resembles the Property of the Father the more in this, that the Spirit proceeds from him also.

Au. What hinders then, but that the holy Spirit may be called Son.

Ba. Because, as St. Hilary saith, I no where read that he was begotten, neither do I read of his Father: I read of the Spirit, and that proceeding from.

Au. Why is the Father alone called God in the Creed?

Ba. Because he, as I have said before, is simply the Author of all Things that are, and the Fountain of the whole Deity.

Au. Speak in plainer Terms.

Ba. Because nothing can be nam'd which hath not its Original from the Father: For indeed, in this very Thing, that the Son and Holy Spirit is God, they acknowledge that they received it from the Father; therefore the chief Authority, that is to say, the Cause of Beginning, is in the Father alone, because he alone is of none: But yet, in the Creed it may be so taken, that the Name of God may not be proper to one Person, but used in general; because, it is distinguish'd afterwards by the Terms of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, into one God; which Word of Nature comprehends the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that is to say, the three Persons.

Au. Dost thou believe in the holy Church?

Ba. No.

Au. What say you? Do you not believe in it?

Ba. I believe the holy Church, which is the Body of Christ; that is to say, a certain Congregation of all Men throughout the whole World, who agree in the Faith of the Gospel, who worship one God the Father, who put their whole Confidence in his Son, who are guided by the same Spirit of him; from whose Fellowship he is cut off that commits a deadly Sin.

Au. But why do you stick to say, I believe in the holy Church?

Ba. Because St. Cyprian hath taught me, that we must believe in God alone, in whom we absolutely put all our Confidence. Whereas the Church, properly so called, although it consists of none but good Men; yet it consists of Men, who of good may become bad, who may be deceived, and deceive others.

Au. What do you think of the Communion of Saints?

Ba. This Article is not all meddled with by Cyprian, when he particularly shews what in such and such Churches is more or less used; for he thus connects them: For there followeth after this Saying, the holy Church, the Forgiveness of Sins, the Resurrection of this Flesh. And some are of Opinion, that this Part does not differ from the former; but that it explains and enforces what before was called the holy Church; so that the Church is nothing else but the Profession of one God, one Gospel, one Faith, one Hope, the Participation of the same Spirit, and the same Sacraments: To be short, such a Kind of Communion of all good Things, among all godly Men, who have been from the Beginning of the World, even to the End of it, as the Fellowship of the Members of the Body is between one another. So that the good Deeds of one may help another, until they become lively Members of the Body. But out of this Society, even one's own good Works do not further his Salvation, unless he be reconcil'd to the holy Congregation; and therefore it follows, the Forgiveness of Sins; because out of the Church there is no Remission of Sins, although a Man should pine himself away with Repentance, and exercise Works of Charity. In the Church, I say, not of Hereticks, but the holy Church; that is to say, gathered by the Spirit of Christ, there is Forgiveness of Sins by Baptism, and after Baptism, by Repentence, and the Keys given to the Church.

Au. Thus far they are the Words of a Man that is sound in the Faith. Do you believe that there will be a Resurrection of the Flesh?

Ba. I should believe all the rest to no Purpose, if I did not believe this, which is the Head of all.

Au. What dost thou mean, when thou say'st the Flesh?

Ba. An human Body animated with a human Soul.

Au. Shall every Soul receive its own Body which is left dead?

Ba. The very same from whence it went out; and therefore, in Cyprian's Creed, it is added, of this Flesh.

Au. How can it be, that the Body which hath been now so often chang'd out of one Thing into another, can rise again the same?

Ba. He who could create whatsoever he would out of nothing, is it a hard Matter for him to restore to its former Nature that which hath been changed in its Form? I don't dispute anxiously which Way it can be done; it is sufficient to me, that he who hath promised that it shall be so, is so true, that he can't lye, and so powerful, as to be able to bring to pass with a Beck, whatsoever he pleases.

Au. What need will there be of a Body then?

Ba. That the whole Man may be glorified with Christ, who, in this World, was wholly afflicted with Christ.

Au. What means that which he adds, and Life everlasting.

Ba. Lest any one should think that we shall so rise again, as the Frogs revive at the Beginning of the Spring, to die again. For here is a twofold Death of the Body, that is common to all Men, both good and bad; and of the Soul, and the Death of the Soul is Sin. But after the Resurrection, the godly shall have everlasting Life, both of Body and Soul: Nor shall the Body be then any more obnoxious to Diseases, old Age, Hunger, Thirst, Pain, Weariness, Death, or any Inconveniences; but being made spiritual, it shall be mov'd as the Spirit will have it: Nor shall the Soul be any more sollicited with any Vices or Sorrows; but shall for ever enjoy the chiefest Good, which is God himself. On the contrary, eternal Death, both of Body and Soul, shall seize upon the wicked. For their Body shall be made immortal, in order to the enduring everlasting Torments, and their Soul to be continually vexed with the Gripes of their Sins, without any Hope of Pardon.

Au. Dost thou believe these things from thy very Heart, and unfeignedly?

Ba. I believe them so certainly, I tell you, that I am not so sure that you talk with me.

Au. When I was at Rome, I did not find all so sound in the Faith.

Ba. Nay; but if you examine thoroughly, you'll find a great many others in other Places too, which do not so firmly believe these Things.

Au. Well then, since you agree with us in so many and weighty Points, what hinders that you are not wholly on our Side?

Ba. I have a mind to hear that of you: For I think that I am orthodox. Although I will not warrant for my Life yet I endeavour all I can, that it may be suitable to my Profession.

Au. How comes it about then, that there is so great a War between you and the orthodox?

Ba. Do you enquire into that: But hark you, Doctor, if you are not displeased with this Introduction, take a small Dinner with me; and after Dinner, you may enquire of every Thing at Leisure: I'll give you both Arms to feel my Pulse, and you shall see both Stool and Urine; and after that, if you please, you shall anatomize this whole Breast of mine, that you may make a better Judgment of me.

Au. But I make it a matter of Scruple to eat with thee.

Ba. But Physicians use to eat with their Patients, that they might better observe what they love, and wherein they are irregular.

Au. But I am afraid, lest I should seem to favour Hereticks.

Ba. Nay, but there is nothing more religious than to favour Hereticks.

Au. How so?

Ba. Did not Paul wish to be made an Anathema for the Jews, which were worse than Hereticks? Does not he favour him that endeavours that a Man may be made a good Man of a bad Man?

Au. Yes, he does so.

Ba. Well then, do you favour me thus, and you need not fear any Thing.

Au. I never heard a sick Man answer more to the Purpose. Well, come on, let me dine with you then.

Ba. You shall be entertain'd in a physical Way, as it becomes a Doctor by his Patient, and we will so refresh our Bodies with Food, that the Mind shall be never the less fit for Disputation.

Au. Well, let it be so, with good Birds (i.e. with good Success).

Ba. Nay, it shall be with bad Fishes, unless you chance to have forgot that it is Friday.

Au. Indeed, that is beside our Creed.

THE OLD MENS DIALOGUE

The ARGUMENT

[Greek: Terontologia], or, [Greek: Ochêma], shews, as tho' it were in a Looking-glass, what Things are to be avoided in Life, and what Things contribute to the Tranquillity of Life. Old Men that were formerly intimate Acquaintance when Boys, after forty Years Absence, one from the other, happen to meet together, going to Antwerp. There seems to be a very great Inequality in them that are equal in Age. Polygamus, he is very old: Glycion has no Signs of Age upon him, tho' he is sixty six; he proposes a Method of keeping off old Age. I. He consults what Sort of Life to chuse, and follows the Advice of a prudent old Man, who persuades him to marry a Wife that was his equal, making his Choice with Judgment, before he falls in Love. 2. He has born a publick Office, but not obnoxious to troublesome Affairs. 3. He transacts Affairs that do not expose him to Envy. 4. He bridles his Tongue. 5. He is not violently fond of, nor averse to any Thing. He moderates his Affections, suffers no Sorrow to abide with him all Night. 6. He abstains from Vices, and renews his Patience every Day. 7. He is not anxiously thoughtful of Death. 8. He does not travel into foreign Countries. 9. He has nothing to do with Doctors. 10. He diverts himself with Study, but does not study himself lean. On the other hand, Polygamus has brought old Age upon him, by the Intemperance of his Youth, by Drinking, Whoring, Gaming, running in Debt; he had had eight Wives. Pampirus, he becomes a Merchant; but consumes all he has by Gaming; then he becomes a Canon; then a Carthusian; after that a Benedictine; and last of all, turns Soldier. Eusebius, he gets a good Benefice and preaches.

EUSEBIUS, PAMPIRUS, POLYGAMUS, GLYCION, HUGUITIO, and HARRY the Coachman.

Euseb. What new Faces do I see here? If I am not mistaken, or do not see clear, I see three old Companions sitting by me; Pampirus, Polygamus and Glycion; they are certainly the very same.

Pa. What do you mean, with your Glass Eyes, you Wizard? Pray come nearer a little, Eusebius.

Po. Hail, heartily, my wish'd for Eusebius.

Gl. All Health to you, the best of Men.

Eu. One Blessing upon you all, my dear Friends. What God, or providential Chance has brought us together now, for I believe none of us have seen the one the other, for this forty Years. Why Mercury with his Mace could not have more luckily brought us together into a Circle; but what are you doing here?

Pa. We are sitting.

Eu. I see that, but what do you sit for?

Po. We wait for the Antwerp Waggon.

Eu. What, are you going to the Fair?

Po. We are so: but rather Spectators, than Traders, tho' one has one Business, and another has another.

Eu. Well, and I am going thither myself too. But what hinders you, that you are not going?

Po. We han't agreed with the Waggoner yet.

Eu. These Waggoners are a surly Sort of People; but are you willing that we put a Trick upon them?

Po. With all my Heart, if it can be done fairly.

Eu. We will pretend that we will go thither a-Foot together.

Po. They'll sooner believe that a Crab-Fish will fly, than that such heavy Fellows as we will take such a Journey on Foot.

Eu. Will you follow good wholsome Advice?

Po. Yes, by all Means.

Gl. They are a drinking, and the longer they are fuddling, the more Danger we shall be in of being overturned in the Dirt.

Po. You must come very early, if you find a Waggoner sober.

Gl. Let us hire the Waggon for us four by ourselves, that we may get to Antwerp the sooner: It is but a little more Charge, not worth minding, and this Expence will be made up by many Advantages; we shall have the more Room, and shall pass the Journey the more pleasantly in mutual Conversation.

Po. Glycion is much in the Right on't. For good Company in a Journey does the Office of a Coach; and according to the Greek Proverb, we shall have more Liberty of talking, not about a Waggon, but in a Waggon.

Gl. Well, I have made a Bargain, let us get up. Now I've a Mind to be merry, seeing I have had the good Luck to see my old dear Comrades after so long a Separation.

Eu. And methinks I seem to grow young again.

Po. How many Years do you reckon it, since we liv'd together at Paris?

Eu. I believe it is not less than two and forty Years.

Pa. Then we seem'd to be all pretty much of an Age.

Eu. We were so, pretty near the Matter, for if there was any Difference it was very little.

Pa. But what a great Difference does there seem to be now? For Glycion has nothing of an old Man about him, and Polygamus looks old enough to be his Grandfather.

Eu. Why truly he does so, but what should be the Reason of it?

Pa. What? Why either the one loiter'd and stopp'd in his Course, or the other run faster (out-run him).

Eu. Oh! Time does not stay, how much soever Men may loiter.

Po. Come, tell us, Glycion truly, how many Years do you number?

Gl. More than Ducats in my Pocket.

Po. Well, but how many?

Gl. Threescore and six.

Eu. Why thou'lt never be old.

Po. But by what Arts hast thou kept off old Age? for you have no grey Hairs, nor Wrinkles in your Skin, your Eyes are lively, your Teeth are white and even, you have a fresh Colour, and a plump Body.

Gl. I'll tell you my Art, upon Condition you'll tell us your Art of coming to be old so soon.

Po. I agree to the Condition. I'll do it. Then tell us whither you went when you left Paris.

Gl. I went directly into my own Country, and by that Time I had been there almost a Year, I began to bethink myself what Course of Life to chuse; which I thought to be a Matter of great Importance, as to my future Happiness; so I cast my Thoughts about what had been successful to some, and what had been unsuccessful to others.

Po. I admire you had so much Prudence, when you were as great a Maggot as any in the World, when you were at Paris.

Gl. Then my Age did permit a little Wildness. But, my good Friend, you must know, I did not do all this neither of my own mother-Wit.

Po. Indeed I stood in Admiration.

Gl. Before I engaged in any Thing, I applied to a certain Citizen, a Man of Gravity, of the greatest Prudence by long Experience, and of a general Reputation with his fellow Citizens, and in my Opinion, the most happy Man in the World.

Eu. You did wisely.

Gl. By this Man's Advice I married a Wife.

Po. Had she a very good Portion?

Gl. An indifferent good one, and according to the Proverb, in a competent Proportion to my own: For I had just enough to do my Business, and this Matter succeeded to my Mind.

Po. What was your Age then?

Gl. Almost two and twenty.

Po. O happy Man!

Gl. But don't mistake the Matter; all this was not owing to Fortune neither.

Po. Why so?

Gl. I'll tell you; some love before they chuse, I made my Choice with Judgment first, and then lov'd afterwards, and nevertheless I married this Woman more for the Sake of Posterity than for any carnal Satisfaction. With her I liv'd a very pleasant Life, but not above eight Years.

Po. Did she leave you no children?

Gl. Nay, I have four alive, two Sons and two Daughters.

Po. Do you live as a private Person, or in some publick Office?

Gl. I have a publick Employ. I might have happen'd to have got into a higher Post, but I chose this because it was creditable enough to secure me from Contempt, and is free from troublesome Attendance: And it is such, that no Body need object against me that I live only for myself, I have also something to spare now and then to assist a Friend. With this I live content, and it is the very Height of my Ambition. And then I have taken Care so to execute my Office, to give more Reputation to my Office than I receiv'd from it; this I account to be more honourable, than to borrow my Dignity from the Splendor of my Office.

Eu. Without all Controversy.

Gl. By this Means I am advanced in Years, and the Affections of my fellow Citizens.

Eu. But that's one of the difficultest Things in the World, when with very good Reason there is this old Saying: He that has no Enemies has no Friends; and Envy is always an Attendant on Felicity.

Gl. Envy always is a Concomitant of a pompous Felicity, but a Mediocrity is safe; this was always my Study, not to make any Advantage to myself from the Disadvantages of other People. I embraced as much as I could, that which the Greeks call Freedom from the Encumbrance of Business. I intermeddled with no one's Affairs; but especially I kept myself clear from those that could not be meddled with without gaining the ill Will of a great many. If a Friend wants my Assistance, I so serve him, as thereby not to procure any Enemies to myself. In Case of any Misunderstanding between me and any Persons, I endeavour to soften it by clearing myself of Suspicion, or to set all right again by good Offices, or to let it die without taking Notice of it: I always avoid Contention, but if it shall happen, I had rather lose my Money than my Friend. Upon the Whole, I act the Part of Mitio in the Comedy, I affront no Man, I carry a chearful Countenance to all, I salute and resalute affably, I find no Fault with what any Man purposes to do or does, I don't prefer myself before other People; I let every one enjoy his Opinion; what I would have kept as a Secret, I tell to no Body: I never am curious to pry in the Privacies of other Men. If I happen to come to the Knowledge of any thing, I never blab it. As for absent Persons, I either say nothing at all of them, or speak of them with Kindness and Civility. Great Part of the Quarrels that arise between Men, come from the Intemperance of the Tongue. I never breed Quarrels or heighten them; but where-ever Opportunity happens, I either moderate them, or put an End to them. By these Methods I have hitherto kept clear of Envy, and have maintained the Affections of my fellow Citizens.