The Colloquies of Erasmus, Volume I

Eu. Your Discourse is, indeed, answerable to your Name, and one that knows how to propound Questions as you do, has no Need of any Body to answer them but himself. For you have so proposed your Doubts, as to put one quite out of doubt, altho' St. Paul, in that Epistle, (proposing to handle many Things at once) passes often from one Argument to another, repeating what he had intermitted.

Ch. If I were not afraid, that by my Loquacity I should divert you from eating your Dinners, and did think it were lawful to intermix any Thing out of profane Authors with sacred Discourses, I would venture to propose something that I read to Day; not so much with Perplexity, as with a singular Delight.

Eu. Whatsoever is pious, and conduces to good Manners, ought not to be called profane. The first Place must indeed be given to the Authority of the Scriptures; but nevertheless, I sometimes find some Things said or written by the Antients; nay, even by the Heathens; nay, by the Poets themselves, so chastly, so holily, and so divinely, that I cannot persuade myself, but that when they wrote them, they were divinely inspired; and perhaps the Spirit of Christ diffuses itself farther than we imagine; and that there are more Saints than we have in our Catalogue. To confess freely among Friends, I can't read Tully of Old Age, of Friendship, his Offices, or his Tusculan Questions, without kissing the Book, and Veneration for that divine Soul. And on the contrary, when I read some of our modern Authors, treating of Politics, Oeconomics and Ethics, good God! how cold they are in Comparison of these? Nay, how do they seem to be insensible of what they write themselves? So that I had rather lose Scotus and twenty more such as he, than one Cicero or Plutarch. Not that I am wholly against them neither; but because, by the reading of the one, I find myself become better; whereas, I rise from the other, I know not how coldly affected to Virtue, but most violently inclin'd to Cavil and Contention; therefore never fear to propose it, whatsoever it is.

Ch. Although all Tully's Books of Philosophy seem to breathe out something divine; yet that Treatise of Old Age, that he wrote in old Age, seems to me to be according to the Greek Proverb; the Song of the dying Swan. I was reading it to Day, and these Words pleasing me above the rest, I got 'em by Heart: Should it please God to give me a Grant to begin my Life again from my very Cradle, and once more to run over the Course of my Years I have lived, I would not upon any Terms accept of it: Nor would I, having in a Manner finished my Race, run it over again from the starting Place to the Goal: For what Pleasure has this Life in it? nay, rather, what Pain has it not? But if there were not, there would be undoubtedly in it Satiety or Trouble. I am not for bewailing my past Life as a great many, and learned Men too, have done, nor do I repent that I have liv'd; because, I have liv'd so, that I am satisfy'd I have not liv'd in vain. And when I leave this Life, I leave it as an Inn, and not as a Place of Abode. For Nature has given us our Bodies as an Inn to lodge in, and not to dwell in. O! glorious Day will that be, when I shall leave this Rabble-rout and Defilements of the World behind me, to go to that Society and World of Spirits! Thus far out of Cato. What could be spoken more divinely by a Christian? I wish all the Discourses of our Monks, even with their holy Virgins, were such as the Dialogue of this aged Pagan, with the Pagan Youths of his Time.

Eu. It may be objected, that this Colloquy of Tully's was but a Fiction.

Ch. It is all one to me, whether the Honour of these Expressions be given to Cato, who thought and spoke them, or to Cicero, whose Mind could form such divine Things in Contemplation, and whose Pen could represent such excellent Matter in Words so answerable to it; though indeed I am apt to think that Cato, if he did not speak these very Words, yet that in his familiar Conversation he us'd Words of the very same Import. For indeed, M. Tully was not a Man of that Impudence, to draw Cato otherwise than he was. Beside, that such an Unlikeness in a Dialogue would have been a great Indecorum, which is the thing chiefly to be avoided in this Sort of Discourse; and especially, at a Time when his Character was fresh in the Memories of all Men.

Th. That which you say is very likely: But I'll tell you what came into my Mind upon your Recital. I have often admired with myself, that considering that all Men wish for long Life, and are afraid of Death; that yet, I have scarce found any Man so happy, (I don't speak of old, but of middle-aged Men); but that if the Question were put to him, whether or no, if it should be granted him to grow young again, and run over the same good and ill Fortune that he had before, he would not make the same Answer that Cato did; especially passing a true Reflection upon the Mixture of Good and Ill of his past Life. For the Remembrance even of the pleasantest Part of it is commonly attended with Shame, and Sting of Conscience, insomuch that the Memory of past Delights is more painful to us, than that of past Misfortunes. Therefore it was wisely done of the ancient Poets in the Fable of Lethe, to represent the Dead drinking largely of the Waters of Forgetfulness, before their Souls were affected with any Desire of the Bodies they had left behind them.

Ur. It is a Thing well worthy of our Admiration, and what I myself have observ'd in some Persons. But that in Cato that pleases me the most is his Declaration. Neither am I sorry that I have liv'd. Where is the Christian, that has so led his Life, as to be able to say as much as this old Man? It is a common Thing for Men, who have scrap'd great Estates together by Hook or by Crook, when they are upon their Death Beds, and about to leave them, then to think they have not liv'd in vain. But Cato therefore thought, that he had not liv'd in vain, upon the Conscience of his having discharg'd all the Parts of an honest and useful Citizen, and an uncorrupted Magistrate; and that he should leave to Posterity, Monuments of his Virtue and Industry. And what could be spoken more divinely than this, I depart as from an Inn, and not an Habitation. So long we may stay in an Inn till the Host bids us be gone, but a Man will not easily be forc'd from his own House. And yet from hence the Fall of the House, or Fire, or some Accident drives us. Or if nothing of these happen, the Structure falls to Pieces with old Age, thereby admonishing us that we must change our Quarters.

Neph. That Expression of Socrates in Plato is not less elegant: Methinks, says he, the Soul of a Man is in the Body as in a Garrison, there is no quitting of it without the Leave of the Generals, nor no staying any longer in it, than during the Pleasure of him that plac'd him there. This Allusion of _Plato'_s, of a Garrison instead of a House, is the more significant of the two. For in a House is only imply'd Abode, in a Garrison we are appointed to some Duty by our Governor. And much to the same Purpose is it, that in Holy Writ the Life of Man is sometimes call'd a Warfare, and at other times a Race.

Ur. But Cato's Speech, methinks, seems to agree very well with that of St. Paul, who writing to the Corinthians, calls that heavenly Mansion, which we look for after this Life in one Place [Greek: oikian] a House, in another [Greek: oikêtêrion] a Mansion, and moreover (besides that) he calls the Body [Greek: skênos] a Tabernacle. For we also, (says he) who are in this Tabernacle, groan, being burthened.

Neph. Much after this Manner says St. Peter; And I think it meet (says he) as long as I am in this Tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in Mind, being assured that I shall shortly put off this Tabernacle. And what else does Christ himself say to us, but that we should live and watch, as if we were presently to die: And so apply ourselves to honest Things, as if we were to live for ever? And when we hear these excellent Words of Cato, O that glorious Day, do we not seem to hear St. Paul himself saying, I desire to be dissolved, and to be with Christ?

Ch. How happy are they that wait for Death with such a Frame of Mind? But as for Cato's Speech, altho' it be an excellent one, methinks there is more Boldness and Arrogance in it, than becomes a Christian. Indeed, I never read anything in a Heathen, that comes nearer to a Christian, than what Socrates said to Crito, a little before he drank his Poison; Whether I shall be approv'd or not in the Sight of God, I cannot tell; but this I am certain of, that I have most affectionately endeavoured to please him; and I have a good Hope, that he will accept of my Endeavours. This great Man was diffident of his own Performances; but so, that being conscious to himself of the Propensity of his Inclination to obey the divine Will, he conceived a good Hope, that God, of his Goodness, would accept him for the Honesty of his Intentions.

Neph. Indeed, it was a wonderful Elevation of Mind in a Man, that knew not Christ, nor the holy Scriptures: And therefore, I can scarce forbear, when I read such Things of such Men, but cry out, Sancte Socrates, ora pro nobis; Saint Socrates, pray for us.

Ch. And I have much ado sometimes to keep myself from entertaining good Hopes of the Souls of Virgil and Horace.

Neph. But how unwillingly have I seen many Christians die? Some put their Trust in Things not to be confided in; others breathe out their Souls in Desperation, either out of a Consciousness of their lewd Lives, or by Reason of Scruples that have been injected into their Minds, even in their dying Hours, by some indiscreet Men.

Ch. It is no wonder to find them die so, who have spent their Time in philosophizing about Ceremonies all their Lives.

Neph. What do you mean by Ceremonies?

Ch. I'll tell you, but with Protestation over and over beforehand, that I don't find Fault with the Sacraments and Rites of the Church, but rather highly approve of them; but I blame a wicked and superstitious Sort of People, or (to put it in the softest Term) the simple and unlearned Persons, who teach People to put their Confidence in these Things, omitting those Things which make them truly Christians.

Neph. I don't yet clearly understand what it is you aim at.

Ch. I'll be plainer then. If you look into Christians in common, don't you find they live as if the whole Sum of Religion consisted in Ceremonies? With how much Pomp are the antient Rites of the Church set forth in Baptism? The Infant waits without the Church Door, the Exorcism is performed, the Catechizing is performed, Vows are made, Satan is abjured, with all his Pomps and Pleasures; then the Child is anointed, sign'd, season'd with Salt, dipt, a Charge given to his Sureties to see it well brought up; and the Oblation-Money being paid, they are discharged, and by this Time the Child passes for a Christian, and in some Sense is so. A little Time after, it is anointed again, and in Time learns to confess, receives the Sacrament, is accustom'd to rest upon Holy-Days, to hear Divine Service, to fast sometimes, to abstain from Flesh; and if he observes all these, he passes for an absolute Christian. He marries a Wife, and then comes on another Sacrament; he enters into Holy Orders, is anointed again, and consecrated, his Habit is chang'd, and then to Prayers. Now I approve of the doing of all this well enough; but the doing of them more out of Custom than Conscience, I don't approve; but to think that nothing else is requisite for the making a Christian, I absolutely disapprove: For the greatest Part of Men in the World trust to these Things, and think they have nothing else to do, but get Wealth by Right or Wrong, to gratify their Passions of Rage, Lust, Malice, Ambition: And this they do till they come upon their Death Bed; and then there follows more Ceremonies; Confession upon Confession, more Unction still, the Eucharist is administred; Tapers, the Cross, holy Water are brought in; Indulgencies are procured, if they are to be had for Love or Money; Orders are given for a magnificent Funeral; and then comes on another solemn Contract: When the Man is in the Agony of Death, there's one stands by bawling in his Ear, and now and then dispatches him before his Time, if he chance to be a little in Drink, or have better Lungs than ordinary. Now although these Things may be well enough, as they are done in Conformity to ecclesiastical Customs; yet there are some more internal Impressions, which have an Efficacy to fortify us against the Assaults of Death, by filling our Hearts with Joy, and helping us to go out of the World with a Christian Assurance.

Eu. You speak very piously and truly; but in the mean Time here is no Body eats; I told you before, that you must expect nothing after the second Course, and that a Country one too, lest any Body should look for Pheasants, Moorhens, and fine Kickshaws. Here, Boy! take away these Things, and bring up the rest. You see, not the Affluence, but the Straitness of my Fortune. This is the Product of my Gardens you have seen; don't spare, if you like any Thing.

Ti. There's so great a Variety, it does a Man good to look upon it.

Eu. That you mayn't altogether despise my Thriftiness, this Dish would have chear'd up the Heart of old Hilarion, the evangelical Monk, with a hundred more of his Fellows, the Monks of that Age. But Paul and Anthony would have lived a Month upon it.

Ti. Yes, and Prince Peter too, I fancy would have leap'd at it, when he lodg'd at Simon the Tanner's.

Eu. Yes; and Paul too, I believe, when by Reason of Poverty he sat up a-Nights to make Tents.

Ti. How much do we owe to the Goodness of God! But yet, I had rather suffer Hunger with Peter and Paul, upon Condition, that what I wanted for my Body, might be made up by the Satisfaction of my Mind.

Eu. Let us learn of St. Paul, both how to abound, and how to suffer Want. When we want, let us praise God, that he has afforded us Matter to exercise our Frugality and Patience upon: When we abound, let us be thankful for his Munificence, who by his Liberality, invites and provokes us to love him; and using those Things the divine Bounty has plentifully bestowed upon us, with Moderation and Temperance; let us be mindful of the Poor, whom God has been pleas'd to suffer to want what he has made abound to us, that neither Side may want an Occasion of exercising Virtue: For he bestows upon us sufficient for the Relief of our Brother's Necessity, that we may obtain his Mercy, and that the Poor on the other Hand, being refresh'd by our Liberality, may give him Thanks for putting it into our Hearts, and recommend us to him in their Prayers; and, very well remember'd! Come hither, Boy; bid my Wife send Gudula some of the roast Meat that's left, 'tis a very good poor Woman in the Neighbourhood big with Child, her Husband is lately dead, a profuse, lazy Fellow, that has left nothing but a Stock of Children.

Ti. Christ has commanded to give to every one that asks; but if I should do so, I should go a begging myself in a Month's Time.

Eu. I suppose Christ means only such as ask for Necessaries: For to them who ask, nay, who importune, or rather extort great Sums from People to furnish voluptuous Entertainments, or, which is worse, to feed Luxury and Lust, it is Charity to deny; nay, it is a Kind of Rapine to bestow that which we owe to the present Necessity of our Neighbours, upon those that will abuse it; upon this Consideration it is, that it seems to me, that they can scarcely be excus'd from being guilty of a mortal Sin, who at a prodigious Expence, either build or beautify Monasteries or Churches, when in the mean Time so many living Temples of Christ are ready to starve for Want of Food and Clothing, and are sadly afflicted with the Want of other Necessaries. When I was in England, I saw St. Thomas's, Tomb all over bedeck'd with a vast Number of Jewels of an immense Price, besides other rich Furniture, even to Admiration; I had rather that these Superfluities should be apply'd to charitable Uses, than to be reserv'd for Princes, that shall one Time or other make a Booty of them. The holy Man, I am confident, would have been better pleas'd, to have his Tomb adorn'd with Leaves and Flowers. When I was in Lombardy, I saw a Cloyster of the Carthusians, not far from Pavia; the Chapel is built from Top to Bottom, within and without, of white Marble, and almost all that is in it, as Altars, Pillars, and Tombs, are all Marble. To what Purpose was it to be at such a vast Expence upon a Marble Temple, for a few solitary Monks to sing in? And 'tis more Burthen to them than Use too, for they are perpetually troubled with Strangers, that come thither, only out of mere Curiosity, to see the Marble Temple. And that, which is yet more ridiculous, I was told there, that there is an Endowment of three thousand Ducats a Year for keeping the Monastery in Repair. And there are some that think that it is Sacrilege, to convert a Penny of that Money to any other pious Uses, contrary to the Intention of the Testator; they had rather pull down, that they may rebuild, than not go on with building. I thought meet to mention these, being something more remarkable than ordinary; tho' we have a World of Instances of this Kind up and down in our Churches. This, in my Opinion, is rather Ambition than Charity. Rich Men now-a-Days will have their Monuments in Churches, whereas in Times past they could hardly get Room for the Saints there: They must have their Images there, and their Pictures, forsooth, with their Names at length, their Titles, and the Inscription of their Donation; and this takes up a considerable Part of the Church; and I believe in Time they'll be for having their Corpse laid even in the very Altars themselves. But perhaps, some will say, would you have their Munificence be discourag'd? I say no, by no Means, provided what they offer to the Temple of God be worthy of it. But if I were a Priest or a Bishop, I would put it into the Heads of those thick-scull'd Courtiers or Merchants, that if they would atone for their Sins to Almighty God, they should privately bestow their Liberality upon the Relief of the Poor. But they reckon all as lost, that goes out so by Piece-meal, and is privily distributed toward the Succour of the Needy, that the next Age shall have no Memorial of the Bounty. But I think no Money can be better bestow'd, than that which Christ himself would have put to his Account, and makes himself Debtor for.

Ti. Don't you take that Bounty to be well plac'd that is bestow'd upon Monasteries?

Eu. Yes, and I would be a Benefactor myself, if I had an Estate that would allow it; but it should be such a Provision for Necessaries, as should not reach to Luxury. And I would give something too, wheresoever I found a religious Man that wanted it.

Ti. Many are of Opinion, that what is given to common Beggars, is not well bestowed.

Eu. I would do something that Way too; but with Discretion: But in my Opinion, it were better if every City were to maintain their own Poor; and Vagabonds and sturdy Beggars were not suffer'd to strole about, who want Work more than Money.

Ti. To whom then would you in an especial Manner give? How much? And to what Purposes?

Eu. It is a hard Matter for me to answer to all these Points exactly: First of all, there should be an Inclination to be helpful to all, and after that, the Proportion must be according to my Ability, as Opportunity should offer; and especially to those whom I know to be poor and honest; and when my own Purse fail'd me, I would exhort others to Charity.

Ti. But will you give us Leave now to discourse freely in your Dominions?

Eu. As freely as if you were at Home at your own Houses.

Ti. You don't love vast Expences upon Churches, you say, and this House might have been built for less than it was.

Eu. Indeed, I think this House of mine to be within the Compass of cleanly and convenient, far from Luxury, or I am mistaken. Some that live by begging, have built with more State; and yet, these Gardens of Mine, such as they are, pay a Tribute to the Poor; and I daily lessen my Expence, and am the more frugal in Expence upon myself and Family, that I may contribute the more plentifully to them.

Ti. If all Men were of your Mind, it would be better than it is with a good many People who deserve better, that are now in extreme Want; and on the other Hand, many of those pamper'd Carcases would be brought down, who deserve to be taught Sobriety and Modesty by Penury.

Eu. It may be so: but shall I mend your mean Entertainment now, with the best Bit at last?

Ti. We have had more than enough of Delicacies already.

Eu. That which I am now about to give you, let your Bellies be never so full, won't over-charge your Stomachs.

Ti. What is it?

Eu. The Book of the four Evangelists, that I may treat you with the best at last. Read, Boy, from the Place where you left off last.

Boy. No Man can serve two Masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other: You cannot serve God and Mammon. Therefore, I say unto you, take no thought for your Life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink: Nor yet for your Body, what you shall put on. Is not the Life more than Meat, and the Body than Raiment?

Eu. Give me the Book. In this Place Jesus Christ seems to me, to have said the same Thing twice: For instead of what he had said in the first Place, i.e. he will hate; he says immediately, he will despise. And for what he had said before, he will love, he by and by turns it, he will hold to. The Sense is the same, tho' the Persons are chang'd.

Ti. I do not very well apprehend what you mean.

Eu. Let me, if you please, demonstrate it mathematically. In the first Part, put A for the one, and B for the other. In the latter Part, put B for one, and A for the other, inverting the Order; for either A will hate, and B will love, or B will hold to, and A will despise. Is it not plain now, that A is twice hated, and B twice beloved?

Ti. 'Tis very clear.

Eu. This Conjunction, or, especially repeated, has the Emphasis of a contrary, or at least, a different Meaning. Would it not be otherwise absurd to say, Either Peter shall overcome me, and I'll yield; or I'll yield, and Peter shall overcome me?

Ti. A pretty Sophism, as I'm an honest Man.

Eu. I shall think it so when you have made it out, not before.

The. I have something runs in my Mind, and I'm with Child to have it out: I can't tell what to make on't, but let it be what it will, you shall have it if you please; if it be a Dream, you shall be the Interpreters, or midwife it into the World.

Eu. Although it is looked upon to be unlucky to talk of Dreams at Table, and it is immodest to bring forth before so many Men; but this Dream, or this Conception of thy Mind, be it what it will, let us have it.

The. In my Judgment it is rather the Thing than the Person that is chang'd in this Text. And the Words one and one do not refer to A and B; but either Part of them, to which of the other you please; so that chuse which you will, it must be opposed to that, which is signified by the other; as if you should say, you shall either exclude A and admit B, or you shall admit A and exclude B. Here's the Thing chang'd, and the Person the same: And it is so spoken of A, that it is the same Case, if you should say the same Thing of B; as thus, either you shall exclude B or admit A, or admit B or exclude A.