The Colloquies of Erasmus, Volume I

Ch. I never heard any Thing more to the Purpose from a Poet. You deserve to drink out of a Cup set with Jewels. Boy, take away this Dish, and set on another.

Au. You have got a very clownish Boy.

Ch. He is the unluckiest Knave in the World.

Au. Why don't you teach him better Manners?

Ch. He is too old to learn. It is a hard matter to mend the Manners of an old Sinner. An old Dog won't be easily brought to wear the Collar. He's well enough for me. Like Master like Man.

* * * * *

If I knew what you lik'd, I would help you.

Au. I would cut you a Slice, if I knew what would please you. I would help you, if I knew your Palate. I would help you, if I knew what you lik'd best. If I knew the Disposition of your Palate, I would be your Carver. Indeed my Palate is like my Judgment.

Ch. You have a very nice Palate. No Body has a nicer Palate than you have. I don't think you come behind him of whose exquisite Skill the Satyrist says,

Ostrea callebat primo deprendere morsu, Et semel aspecti dicebat littus echini.

Au. And you, my Christian, that I may return the Compliment, seem to have been Scholar to Epicurus, or brought up in the Catian School. For what's more delicate or nice than your Palate?

Ch. If I understood Oratory so well as I do Cookery, I'd challenge Cicero himself.

Au. Indeed if I must be without one, I had rather want Oratory than Cookery.

Ch. I am entirely of your Mind, you judge gravely, wisely, and truly. For what is the Prattle of Orators good for, but to tickle idle Ears with a vain Pleasure? But Cookery feeds and repairs the Palate, the Belly, and the whole Man, let him be as big as he will. Cicero says, Concedat laurea lingæ; but both of them must give place to Cookery. I never very well liked those Stoicks, who referring all things to their (I can't tell what) honestum, thought we ought to have no regard to our Persons and our Palates. Aristippus was wiser than Diogenes beyond Expression in my Opinion.

Au. I despise the Stoicks with all their Fasts. But I praise and approve Epicurus more than that Cynic Diogenes, who lived upon raw Herbs and Water; and therefore I don't wonder that Alexander, that fortunate King, had rather be Alexander than Diogenes.

Ch. Nor indeed would I myself, who am but an ordinary Man, change my Philosophy for Diogenes's; and I believe your Catius would refuse to do it too. The Philosophers of our Time are wiser, who are content to dispute like Stoicks, but in living out-do even Epicurus himself. And yet for all that, I look upon Philosophy to be one of the most excellent Things in Nature, if used moderately. I don't approve of philosophising too much, for it is a very jejune, barren, and melancholy Thing. When I fall into any Calamity or Sickness, then I betake myself to Philosophy, as to a Physician; but when I am well again, I bid it farewell.

Au. I like your Method. You do philosophize very well. Your humble Servant, Mr. Philosopher; not of the Stoick School, but the Kitchen.

Ch. What is the Matter with you, Erasmus, that you are so melancholy? What makes you look so frowningly? What makes you so silent? Are you angry with me because I have entertained you with such a slender Supper?

Er. Nay, I am angry with you that you have put your self to so much Charge upon my Account. Austin laid a strict Charge upon you that you would provide nothing extraordinary upon his Account. I believe you have a Mind we should never come to see you again; for they give such a Supper as this that intended to make but one. What sort of Guests did you expect? You seem to have provided not for Friends, but for Princes. Do you think we are Gluttons? This is not to entertain one with a Supper, but victualling one for three Days together.

Ch. You will be ill-humour'd. Dispute about that Matter to-Morrow; pray be good humour'd to-Day. We'll talk about the Charge to-Morrow; I have no Mind to hear any Thing but what is merry at this time.

Au. Christian, whether had you rather have, Beef or Mutton?

Ch. I like Beef best, but I think Mutton is the most wholsome. It is the Disposition of Mankind to be most desirous of those Things that are the most hurtful.

Au. The French are wonderful Admirers of Pork.

Ch. The French love that most that costs least.

Au. I am a Jew in this one Thing, there is nothing I hate so much as Swine's Flesh.

Ch. Nor without Reason, for what is more unwholsome? In this I am not of the French Man's but of the Jew's Mind.

Er. But I love both Mutton and Pork, but for a different Reason; for I eat freely of Mutton, because I love it; but Hogs Flesh I don't touch, by Reason of Love, that I may not give Offence.

Ch. You are a clever Man, Erasmus, and a very merry one too. Indeed I am apt to admire from whence it comes to pass that there is such a great Diversity in Mens Palates, for if I may make use of this Verse of Horace,

      Tres mihi convivæ propè dissentire videntur,      Poscentes vario multùm diversa palato.

Er. Although as the Comedian says, So many Men, so many Minds, and every Man has his own Way; yet no Body can make me believe, there is more Variety in Mens Dispositions, than there is in their Palates: So that you can scarce find two that love the same Things. I have seen a great many, that can't bear so much as the Smell of Butter and Cheese: Some loath Flesh; one will not eat roast Meat, and another won't eat boil'd. There are many that prefer Water before Wine. And more than this, which you'll hardly believe; I have seen a Man who would neither eat Bread, nor drink Wine.

Ch. What did that poor Man live on?

Er. There was nothing else but what he could eat; Meat, Fish, Herbs and Fruit.

Ch. Would you have me believe you?

Er. Yes, if you will.

Ch. I will believe you; but upon this Condition, that you shall believe me when I tell a Lye.

Er. Well, I will do it, so that you lye modestly.

Ch. As if any Thing could be more impudent than your Lye.

Er. What would your Confidence say, if I should shew you the Man?

Ch. He must needs be a starveling Fellow, a meer Shadow.

Er. You'd say he was a Champion.

Ch. Nay, rather a Polyphemus.

Er. I wonder this should seem so strange to you, when there are a great many that eat dry'd Fish instead of Bread: And some that the Roots of Herbs serve for the same Use that Bread does us.

Ch. I believe you; lye on.

Er. I remember, I saw a Man when I was in Italy, that grew fat with Sleep, without the Assistance either of Meat or Drink.

Ch. Fie for Shame; I can't forbear making Use of that Expression of the Satyrist, Tunc immensa cavi spirant mendacia folles.

Thou poeticisest. You play the Part of a Poet. I am loath to give you the Lye.

Er. I am the greatest Lyar in the World, if Pliny, an Author of undoubted Credit, has not written, that a Bear in fourteen Days Time will grow wonderfully fat with nothing but Sleep: And that he will sleep so sound, that you can scarce wake him, by wounding him: Nay, to make you admire the more, I will add what Theophrastus writes, that during that Time, if the Flesh of the Bear be boil'd, and kept some Time, it will come to Life again.

Ch. I am afraid that Parmeno in Terence will hardly be able to comprehend these Things. I believe it readily. I would help you to some Venison, if I were well enough accomplished.

Er. Where have you any Hunting now? How came you by Venison?

Ch. Midas, the most generous spirited Man living, and a very good Friend of mine, sent it me for a Present; but so, that I oftentimes buy it for less.

Er. How so?

Ch. Because I am obliged to give more to his Servants, than I could buy it for in the Market.

Er. Who obliges you to that?

Ch. The most violent Tyrant in the World.

Er. Who is he?

Ch. Custom.

Er. Indeed, that Tyrant does frequently impose the most unjust Laws upon Mankind.

Ch. The same Tyrant hunted this Stag, but the Day before Yesterday. What did you do, who used to be a very great Lover of that Sport?

Au. Indeed I have left off that Sport, and now I hunt after nothing but Learning.

Ch. In my Opinion, Learning is fleeter than any Stag.

Au. But I hunt chiefly with two Dogs, that is to say, with Love and Industry: For Love affords a great Deal of Eagerness to learn, and as the most elegant Poet says,

——Labor improbus omnia vincit.

Ch. Austin, you admonish after a friendly Manner, as you use to do; and therefore, I won't give over, nor rest, nor tire, till I attain.

Au. Venison is now in the Prime. Pliny tells us a very admirable Story concerning this Animal.

Ch. What is it, I pray you?

Au. That as often as they prick up their Ears, they are very quick of Hearing; but on the contrary, when they let them down, they are deaf.

Ch. That very often happens to myself; for if I happen to hear a Word spoken of receiving Guineas, there is no Body quicker of Hearing than I; for then with Pamphilus in Terence, I prick up my Ears; but when there is any Mention made of paying them away, I let them down, and am presently hard of Hearing.

Au. Well, I commend you; you do as you should do.

Ch. Would you have some of the Leg of this Hare?

Au. Take it yourself.

Ch. Or had you rather have some of the Back?

Au. This Creature has nothing good but its Flank and hind Legs.

Ch. Did you ever see a white Hare?

Au. Oftentimes. Pliny writes, that on the Alps there are white Hares; and that it is believed in the Winter Time they feed upon Snow:

Whether it be true or no, let Pliny see to that: For if Snow makes a Hare's Skin white, it must make his Stomach white too.

Ch. I don't know but it may be true.

Au. I have something for you that is stranger than that; but it may be you have heard of it. The same Man testifies that there is the same Nature in all of them; that is, of Males and Females, and that the Females do as commonly breed without the Use of the Male, as with it. And many Persons assert the same, and especially your skilful Hunters.

Ch. You say right; but if you please, let us try these Rabbets, for they are fat and tender. I would help that pretty Lady if I sat nigher to her. Austin, pray take Care of that Lady that sits by you, for you know how to please the fair Sex.

Au. I know what you mean, you Joker.

Ch. Do you love Goose?

Au. Ay, I love 'em mightily, and I an't very nice. I don't know what's the Matter, but this Goose don't please me; I never saw any Thing dryer in all my Life; it is dryer than a Pumice-Stone, or Furius's Mother in Law, upon whom Catullus breaks so many Jests. I believe it is made of Wood; And in Troth I believe 'tis an old Soldier, that has worn itself out with being upon the Guard. They say a Goose is the most wakeful Creature living. In Truth, if I am not out in my Guess, this Goose was one of them, who when the Watch and their Dogs were fast asleep, in old Time defended the Roman Capitol.

Ch. As I hope to live I believe it was, for I believe it liv'd in that Age.

Au. And this Hen was either half starv'd, or else was in love, or was jealous; for this Sort of Creatures are much troubled with that Distemper. This Capon fatten'd much better; see what Cares will do. If we were to geld our Theodoricus, he would grow fat much the sooner.

Th. I an't a Cock.

Au. I confess you are not Gallus Cybeles, nor a Dunghil-Cock; but it may be you are Gallus Gallaceus.

Ch. What Word is that?

Au. I leave that Word to be unriddled by you: I am Sphinx, and you shall be Oedipus.

Ch. Austin, tell me truly, have you had no Conversation with French Men, have you had no Affinity with them? Had you nothing to do with them?

Au. None at all, indeed.

Ch. Then you are so much the worse.

Au. But perhaps I have had to do with French Women.

Ch. Will you have any of this Goose's Liver? This was look'd upon as a great Delicacy by the Ancients.

Au. I will refuse nothing that comes from your Hand.

Ch. You must not expect Roman Dainties.

Au. What are they?

Ch. Thistles, Cockles, Tortoises, Conger-Eels, Mushrooms, Truffles, etc.

Au. I had rather have a Turnip than any of them. You are liberal and bountiful, Christian.

Ch. No Body touches these Partridges nor the Pigeons, to-Morrow is a Fast-Day appointed by the Church; prepare against that Hunger; Ballast your Ship against the impending Storm. War is a coming, furnish your Belly with Provision.

Au. I wish you had kept that Word in, we should have risen from Supper more merrily. You torment us before the Time.

Ch. Why so?

Au. Because I hate Fish worse than I do a Snake.

Ch. You are not alone.

Au. Who brought in this troublesome Custom?

Ch. Who order'd you to take Aloes, Wormwood and Scammony in Physick?

Au. But these Things are given to Folks that are sick.

Ch. So these Things are given to them that are too well. It is better sometimes to be sick, than to be too well.

Au. In my Opinion the Jews themselves did not labour under such a Burden. Indeed I could easily refrain from Eels and Swines Flesh, if I might fill my Belly with Capons and Partridges.

Ch. In a great many Circumstances it is not the Thing, but the Mind that distinguishes us from Jews; they held their Hands from certain Meats, as from unclean Things, that would pollute the Mind; but we, understanding that to the Pure, all Things are pure, yet take away Food from the wanton Flesh, as we do Hay from a pamper'd Horse, that it may be more ready to hearken to the Spirit. We sometimes chastise the immoderate Use of pleasant Things, by the Pain of Abstinence.

Au. I hear you; but by the same Argument, Circumcision of the Flesh may be defended; for that moderates the Itch of Coition, and brings Pain. If all hated Fish as bad as I do, I would scarce put a Parricide to so much Torture.

Ch. Some Palates are better pleas'd with Fish than Flesh.

Au. Then they like those Things that please their Gluttony, but don't make for their Health.

Ch. I have heard of some of the Æsops and Apitius's, that have look'd upon Fish as the greatest Delicacy.

Au. How then do Dainties agree with Punishment?

Ch. Every Body han't Lampreys, Scares, and Sturgeons.

Au. Then it is only the poor Folks that are tormented, with whom it is bad enough, if they were permitted to eat Flesh; and it often happens, that when they may eat Flesh for the Church, they can't for their Purse.

Ch. Indeed, a very hard Injunction!

Au. And if the Prohibition of Flesh be turned to delicious Living to the Rich; and if the Poor can't eat Flesh many Times, when otherwise they might, nor can't eat Fish, because they are commonly the dearer; to whom does the Injunction do good?

Ch. To all; for poor Folks may eat Cockles or Frogs, or may gnaw upon Onions or Leeks. The middle Sort of People will make some Abatement in their usual Provision; and though the Rich do make it an Occasion of living deliciously, they ought to impute that to their Gluttony, and not blame the Constitution of the Church.

Au. You have said very well; but for all that, to require Abstinence from Flesh of poor Folks, who feed their Families by the Sweat of their Brows, and live a great Way from Rivers and Lakes, is the same Thing as to command a Famine, or rather a Bulimia. And if we believe Homer, it is the miserablest Death in the World to be starv'd to Death.

Ch. So it seem'd to blind Homer; but with Christians, he is not miserable that dies well.

Au. Let that be so; yet it is a very hard Thing to require any Body to die.

Ch. The Popes don't prohibit the eating of Flesh with that Design, to kill Men, but that they may be moderately afflicted if they have transgress'd; or that taking away their pleasant Food, their Bodies may be less fierce against the Spirit.

Au. The moderate Use of Flesh would effect that.

Ch. But in so great a Variety of Bodies certain Bounds of Flesh can't be prescrib'd, a Kind of Food may.

Au. There are Fishes that yield much Aliment, and there are Sorts of Flesh that yield but little.

Ch. But in general Flesh is most nourishing.

Au. Pray tell me, if you were to go a Journey any whither, would you chuse a lively Horse that was a little wanton, or a diseased Horse, who would often stumble and throw his Rider?

Ch. What do you mean by that?

Au. Because Fish-eating, by its corrupt Humours, renders the Body liable to a great many Diseases, that it can't subserve the Spirit as it should do.

Ch. To what Diseases?

Au. Gouts, Fevers, Leprosies, the King's-Evil.

Ch. How do you know?

Au. I believe Physicians. I had rather do so than try the Experiment.

Ch. Perhaps that happens to a few.

Au. Indeed I believe to a great many; besides, in as much as the Mind acts by the material Organs of the Body, which are affected with good or bad Humours, the Instruments being vitiated, it can't exert its Power as it would.

Ch. I know Doctors do very much find Fault with the eating of Fish; but our Ancestors thought otherwise, and it is our Duty to obey them.

Au. It was a Piece of Religion formerly not to break the Sabbath; but for all that, it was more eligible to save a Man on the Sabbath-Day.

Ch. Every one consults his own Health.

Au. If we will obey St. Paul, Let no Body mind his own Things, but every one the Things of another.

Ch. How come we by this new Divine at our Table? Whence comes this new upstart Master of ours?

Au. Because I don't like Fishes.

Ch. What, then won't you abstain from Flesh?

Au. I do abstain, but grumblingly, and to my great Detriment too.

Ch. Charity suffers all Things.

Au. It is true; but then the same requires but little. If it suffers all Things, why won't it suffer us to eat those Meats the Gospel has given us a Liberty to eat? Why do those Persons, from whom Christ has so often required the Love of himself, suffer so many Bodies of Men to be endanger'd by capital Diseases, and their Souls to be in Danger of eternal Damnation, because of a Thing neither forbidden by Christ, nor necessary in itself?

Ch. When Necessity requires it, the Force of a human Constitution ceases, and the Will of the Lawgiver ceases.

Au. But the Offence of the Weak does not cease. The Scruple of a tender Conscience does not cease. And lastly, it is uncertain with what Limits that Necessity shall be bounded; shall it be when the Fish-eater shall be a giving up the Ghost? It is too late to give Flesh to a Man when he is dying; or shall it be when his Body becomes all feverish? The Choice of Meats is not of so much Consequence.

Ch. What would you have prescrib'd then?

Au. I can tell well enough, if I might be allow'd to be a Dictator in Ecclesiastical Affairs.

Ch. What do you mean by that?

Au. If I were Pope I would exhort all Persons to a perpetual Sobriety of Life, but especially before an holy-Day; and moreover, I would give every one leave to eat what he would, for the Health of his Body, so he did it moderately, and with Thanksgiving; and I would endeavour that what was abated of these Observations should be made up in the Study of true Piety.

Ch. That in my Opinion is of so great Weight, that we ought to make you Pope.

Au. For all your laughing, this Neck could bear a triple Crown.

Ch. But in the mean Time take Care that these Things be not enter'd down in the Sorbon at Paris.

Au. Nay, rather let what is said be written in Wine, as it is fit those Things should that are said over our Cups; but we have had Divinity enough for a Feast We are at Supper, not at the Sorbon.

Ch. Why mayn't that be call'd Sorbon where we sup plentifully?

Au. Well, let us sup then, and not dispute, lest the Sorbon be called after us from Sorbis, and not from Sorbendo.

CHRISTIAN, GUESTS, MIDAS, ERASMUS, the BOY, AUSTIN.

Ch. Well, come my kind Guests, I pray you that you would take this little Supper in good Part, though it be but a slender one. Be merry and good humour'd, though the Supper be but mean and slender. I, relying upon your Familiarity, made bold to invite you; and I will assure you, your Company and Presence is not only very grateful to me, but very pleasant.

Gu. We do assure you, good Christian, that we esteem your Supper to have been very pretty and noble; and we have nothing to find Fault with, but that you make Excuses for it, for that it was very magnificent; for indeed I look upon the Entertainment to be splendid to the greatest degree, that in the first Place consisted of Courses agreeable to Nature, and was season'd with Mirth, Laughter, Jokes and Witticisms, none of which have been wanting in our Entertainment. But here is something comes into my Mind, as to the Number of the Guests, which Varro writes, should not be fewer than three, nor more than nine. For the Graces, who are the Presidents of Humanity and Benevolence, are three; and the Muses, that are the Guides of commendable Studies, are nine; and I see here we have ten Guests besides the Virgins.

Au. Nothing could happen more agreeably; we are in that something wiser than Varro, for we have gotten here three pretty Maids for the three Graces; and as it is not to be thought that Apollo is ever absent from the Chorus of the Muses, we have very much à propos added the tenth Guest.

Ch. You have spoken very much like a Poet. If I had a Laurel here I would crown you with it, and you should be Poet Laureat.

Au. If I were crown'd with Mallows, I should be Poet Maleat; I do not arrogate that Honour to myself. This is an Honour that I don't deserve.

––Haud equidem tali me dignor honore.

Ch. Will you, every one of you, do as much for me as I will do for you?

Gu. Ay, that we will with all our Hearts.

Ch. Then let every one drink off his Cup round as I do. Here's to you first, Midas.

Mi. I thank you heartily. I pledge you heartily; for which the Vulgar says Præstolor. Indeed I won't refuse. I won't refuse any Thing for your Sake.

Ch. Now do you drink to the rest.

Mi. Erasmus, Half this Cup to you.

Er. I pray it may do you good. May it do you good. Much good may it do you. Proficiat is an out of the Way Word.

Ch. Why does the Cup stand still? Why does it not go about? Is our Wine gone? Where are your Eyes, you Rascal? Run quickly, fetch two Quarts of the same Wine.