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Two Dyaloges
Desiderius Erasmus
Two Dyaloges (c. 1549) / Wrytten in laten by the famous clerke, D. Erasm[us] of Roterodame, one called Polyphemus or the gospeller, the other dysposyng of thynges and names, translated in to Englyshe by Edmonde Becke
The preface to the Reader
Lucius Anneus Seneca amonge many other pratie saienges (gentle reder) hathe this also, whiche in my iudgement is as trew as it is wittie. Rogãdo cogit qui rogat superior. And in effecte is thus moch to say, yf a mãnes superior or his better desyre any thige, he might aswell cõmãde it by authoritie as ones to desyre it.
A gentleman a nere cosyn of myne, but moch nerer in fryndshyp, eftesones dyd instant and moue me to translate these two dyaloges folowynge, to whose getlenes I am so moch obliged, indetted and bounde, that he myght well haue cõmaunded me to this and more paynes: to whome I do not onely owe seruyce, but my selfe also. And in accõplysshynge of his most honest request (partly by cause I wolde not the moost inhumane fawte of Ingratitude shuld worthely be imputed to me, & that I might in this thynge also (accordynge to my bounden dutie) gratifie my frende) I haue hassard my selfe in these daungerous dayes, where many are so capcyous, some prone and redy to malygne & depraue, and fewe whose eares are not so festidious, tendre, and redy to please, that in very tryfles & thynges of small importaunce, yet exacte dylygence and exquisite iudgement is loked for and requyred, of them whiche at this present wyll attempte to translate any boke be it that the matter be neuer so base. But what diligence I have enployed in the translaciõ hereof I referre it to the iudgement of the lerned sort, whiche cõferynge my translacion with the laten dyaloges, I dowte not wyl condone and pardone my boldnesse, in that that I chalenge the semblable lybertie whiche the translatours of this tyme iustlie chalenge. For some heretofore submytting them selfe to seruytude, haue lytle respecte to the obseruaciõ of the thyng which in translacyõ is of all other most necessary and requisite, that is to saye, to rendre the sence & the very meanyng of the author, not so relygyouslie addicte to translate worde for worde, for so the sence of the author is oftentimes corrupted & depraued, and neyther the grace of the one tonge nor yet of the other is truely observed or aptlie expressed. The lerned knoweth yt euery tonge hathe his peculyer proprietie, phrase, maner of locucion, enargies and vehemêcie, which so aptlie in any other tõg can not be expressed. Yf I shal perceyue this my symple doinge to be thankefully taken, and in good parte accepted, it shall encorage me hereafter to attempte the translaciõ of some bokes dysposing of matters bothe delectable, frutefull, & expedient to be knowen, by the grace of God, who gyuynge me quyetnes of mynde, lybertie, and abylytie, shall not desyste to communicat the frute of my spare howers, to such as are not lerned in the laten tonge: to whome I dedycat the fyrste frutes of this my symple translacyon.
A declaracion of the names
Poliphemus sygnifieth, valyant or noble, and in an other sygnifi cacion, talcatyfe or clybbe of tong. The name of a Gyant called Cyclops, hauynge but one eye in his forhed, of a huge stature and a myghtie psonage. And is aplyed here to sygnifie a great freke or a lubber, as this Poliphemus was, whiche beynge a man of warre or
a courtyer, had a newe testament in hishande, and loked buselie for somesentence or text of scryptureand that Cannius hiscompanyõ espyed andsayd to hî asfoloweth
The parsons names are Cannius and Poliphemus
Cannius. what hunt Polipheme for here?
Poliphem9. Aske ye what I hunt for here, and yet ye se me haue neyther dogges, dart, Jauelyn, nor huntyng staffe.
Cannius. Paraduenture ye hunt after some praty nymphe of the couert.
Poliphemus. By my trouth and well coniectured, be holde what a goodly pursenet, or a hay I haue here in my hande.
Canni9. Benedicite, what a straunge syght is this, me thinke I se Bachus in a lyons skin, Poliphemus with a boke in his hande. This is a dogge in a doblet, a sowe wt a sadle, of all that euer I se it is a non decet.
Poliphe. I haue not onely paynted and garnyshed my boke with saffron, but also I haue lymmed it withe Sinople, asaphetida, redleed, vermilõ, and byse.
Can. It is a warlyke boke, for it is furnished with knottes, tassils plates, claspes, and brasen bullyons.
Poliphe. Take the boke in your hand and loke within it.
Canni. I se it wery well. Truly it is a praty boke, but me thynkes ye haue not yet trymmed it sufficiently for all your cost ye have bestowed upon it.
Poliphe. Why what lackes it?
Canni. Thou shuldest haue set thyne armes upon it.
Poliphem9. what armes I beseche the?
Cãni9. Mary the heed of Silenus, an olde iolthed drunkard totynge out of a hoggeshed or a tunne, but in good ernest, wherof dothe your boke dyspose or intreate? dothe it teache the art and crafte to drynke a duetaunt?
Poli. Take hede in goddes name what ye say lest ye bolt out a blasphemie before ye be ware.
Cãni9. why bydde ye me take hede what I saye? is there any holy mattr in the boke?
Poli. what mã it is the gospell boke, I trow there is nothynge can be more holye.
Canni9. God for thy grace what hathe Poliphemus to do withe the gospell?
Poli. Nay why do ye not aske what a chrysten man hathe to do with christe?
Canni9. I can not tell but me thynkes a rousty byll or a halbard wold become such a great lubber or a slouyn as thou arte a great deale better, for yf it were my chaûce to mete such one and knewe him not upon seeborde, and he loked so lyke a knaue and a ruffyã as thou dost I wolde take hym for a pirate or a rouer upon the see/ and if I met such one in the wood for an arrante thefe, and a man murderer.
Poli. yea good syr but the gospell teache vs this same lesson, that we shuld not iudge any person by his loke or by his externall & outwarde apparaunce. For lyke wyse as many tymes vnder a graye freers coote a tyrannous mynde lyeth secretly hyd, eue so a polled heed, a crispe or a twyrled berde, a frowninge, a ferse, or a dogged loke, a cappe, or a hat with an oystrich fether, a soldyers cassocke, a payre of hoose all to cut and manglyd, may couer an euangelycall mynde.
Cannius. why not, mary God forbyd elles, yea & many tymes a symple shepe lyeth hyd in a wolfes skynne, and yf a man maye credite and beleue the fables of Aesope, an asse maye lye secretely unknowen by cause he is in a lyons skynne.
Poliphe. Naye I knowe hym whiche bereth a shepe vpon his heed, and a sore in his brest, to whome I wold wysshe with al my hart that he had as whyte and as fauorable frendes as he hathe blacke eyes. And I wolde wisshe also that he were as well guylt ouer and ouer as he hathe a colour mete to take guyltynge.
Canni. Yf ye take hym to were a shepe vpon his heed, that weareth a cappe of woll, howe greuously than art thou lodyn, or what an excedynge heuy burdê bearest thou then I praye the whiche bearest a hoole shepe and an ostryche to vpon thy heed? But what saye ye to hî doth not he more folyssly which beareth a byrd vpon his heed, and an asse in his brest.
Poliphemus. There ye nypped & taunted me in dede.
Cannius. But I wolde saye this geere dyd wonderous wel yf this gospel boke dyd so adourne the with vertue as thou hast adourned lymmed, and gorgiously garnysshed it with many gay goodly glystryng ornamentes. Mary syr thou hast set it forth in his ryght colours in dede, wolde to god it might so adourne the with good cõdiciõs that thou myghtest ones lerne to be an honest man.
Poli. There shall be no defaute in me, I tell you I wyll do my diligence.
Can. Naye there is no doute of that, there shall be no more faute in you now I dare say then was wonte to be.
Poli. Yea but (youre tarte tauntes, and youre churlysshe checkes, and raylynges set asyde) tell me I pray the this one thynge, do you thus disprayse, condempne, or fynde faute with them whiche caryeth aboute with them the newe testament or the gospel boke?
Canni. No by my fayth do I not good praty man.
Poliphe. Call ye me but a praty one and I am hygher then you by ye length of a good asses heed.
Can. I thynke not fully so moche yf the asse stretch forth his eares, but go to it skyllis no matter of that, let it passe, he that bare Christ vpon his backe was called Christofer, and thou whiche bearest the gospell boke aboute with the shall for Poliphemus be called the gospeller or the gospell bearer.
Polip. Do not you counte it an holy thynge to cary aboute with a man the newe testament?
Cãni. why no syr by my trouth do I not, except thou graunte the very asses to be holy to.
Poli. How can an asse be holy?
Cannius. For one asse alone is able to beare thre hundreth suche bokes, and I thynke suche a great lubber as thou art were stronge inoughe to beare as great a burden, and yf thou had a hansome packesadle sette vpon thy backe.
Poliphe. And yet for all your iestynge it is not agaynst good reason to saye that ye asse was holy which bore christ.
Cannius. I do not enuye you man for this holynes for I had as lefe you had that holynes as I, and yf it please you to take it I wyll geue you an holy & a religious relyke of the selfe same asse whiche christ rode vpon, and whan ye haue it ye may kysse it lycke it and cull it as ofte as ye lyst.
Poli. Mary syr I thanke you, ye can not gyue me a more thanckefull gyfte nor do me a greatter pleasure, for that asse withouten any tayle was made as holye as any asse could be by the touchynge of christes body.
Canni9. Undouted they touched christes body also whiche stroke and buffeted christ.
Poliphe. yea but tell me this one thynge I praye the in good ernest. Is it not a great sygne of holynes in a man to cary aboute the gospel boke or the newe testament?
Cannius. It is a token of holynes in dede if it be done without hypocrysie, I meane if it be done without dissimulacion/and for that end, intent & purpose, that it shuld be done for.
Poliphe. What the deuyl & a morten tellest thou a man of warre of hypocrisie, away with hypocrisie to the monkes and the freers.
Cannius. Yea but bycause ye saye so, tell me fyrste I praye you what ye call hypocrisie.
Po. When a man pretendis another thyng outwardly then he meanis secretly in his mynde.
Cannius. But what dothe the bearynge aboute of the newe testament sygnyfie. Dothe it not betoken that thy lyfe shulde be conformable to the gospell which thou carryest aboute with the.
Poli. I thynke well it dothe.
Canni9. Wel then when thy lyfe is not conformable to the boke, is not that playne hypocrisie.
Poliph. Tell me thê what you call the trewe carienge of the gospell boke aboute with a man.
Cãni. Sõme men beare it aboute with them in theyr hãdes (as the gray freers were wonte to beare the rule of saynt Fraunces) and so the porters of Londõ, Asses & horses may beare it as well as they. And there be some other that carry the gospel in theyr mouthes onlie, and such haue no other talke but al of christ and his gospell, and that is a very poynt of a pharysey. And some other carrye it in theyr myndes. But in myne opynion he beares the gospell boke as he shuld do whiche bothe beares it in his hande, cõmunes of it with his mouth whan occasyon of edyfyenge of his neyghboure whan conuenyent oportunytie is mynystred to him, and also beares it in his mynde and thynkes vpon it withe his harte.
Poli. Yea thou art a mery felow, where shall a man fynde suche blacke swãnes?
Cannius. In euery cathedrall church, where there be any deacons, for they beare the gospel boke î theyr hãde, they synge the gospell aloude, somtyme in a lofte that the people may heare thê, althoughe they do not vnderstand it, and theyr myndes are vpõ it when they synge it.
Polphe. And yet for all your sayenge all suche deacons are no saynttes that beare the gospell so in theyr myndes.
Cannius. But lest ye play the subtyle and capcious sophystryar with me I wyll tell you this one thynge before. No man can beare the gospell in his mynde but he must nedes loue it from the bothum of his harte, no man loueth it inwardly and from the bothû of his harte but he must nedes declare and expresse the gospell in his lyuinge, outwarde maners, & behauour.
Poli. I can not skyll of youre subtyle reasonynges, ye are to fyne for me.
Can. Thê I wyll commune with you after a grosser maner, and more playnly. yf thou dyddest beare a tankard of good Reynyshe wyne vpon thy shulders onelye, what other thynge were it to the then a burden.
Poliphe. It were none other thynge truly, it is no great pleasure so beare wyne.
Canni9. What and yf thou dranke asmoche as thou coudest well holde in thy mouthe, after the manner of a gargarisme & spyt it out agayne.
Po. That wolde do me no good at all, but take me not with suche a faute I trow, for the wyne is very bad and if I do so.
Canni. But what and yf thou drynke thy skynne full as thou art wont to do, whê thou comest where good wyne is.
Poliphe. Mary there is nothyng more godly or heuynly.
Canni9.It warmes you at the stomacke, it settes your body in a heate, it makes you loke with a ruddy face, and setteth your hart vpon a mery pynne.
Poliphe. That is suerly so as ye saye in dede.
Canni. The gospell is suche a lyke thynge of all this worlde, for after that it hathe ones persed & entered in the veynes of the mynd it altereth, transposeth, and cleane changeth vpsodowne the whole state of mã, and chaungeth hym cleane as it were into a nother man.
Polip. Ah ha, nowe I wot wherabout ye be, belyke ye thîke that I lyue not accordynge to the gospell or as a good gospeller shulde do.
Canni9. There is no man can dyssolue this questiõ better then thy selfe.
Poli. Call ye it dissoluynge? Naye and yf a thynge come to dyssoluynge gyue me a good sharpe axe in my hande and I trow I shall dyssolue it well inoughe.
Canni. What woldest thou do, I praye the, and yf a man shulde say to thy teth thou lyest falsely, or elles call the by thy ryght name knaue in englysshe.
Poli. What wolde I do quod he, that is a question in dede, mary he shulde feele the wayghte of a payre of churlyshe fystes I warrant the.
Canni. And what and yf a man gaue you a good cuffe vpon the eare that shulde waye a pounde?
Poliphe. It were a well geuen blowe that wolde aduauntage hym. xx. by my trouthe and he escaped so he myght say he rose vpon his ryght syde, but it were maruayle & I cut not of his head harde by his shulders.
Canni. Yea but good felowe thy gospell boke teacheth the to geue gentle answers, and fayre wordes agayne for fowle, and to hym that geueth the a blowe vpon the ryght cheke to holde forth the lyfte.
Poliphe. I do remembre I haue red suche a thinge in my boke, but ye must pardone me for I had quyte forgotten it.
Can. Well go to, what saye ye to prayer I suppose ye praye very ofte.
Poli. That is euyn as very a touche of a pharesey as any can be.
Cannius. I graunt it is no lesse thê a poynte of a pharesey to praye longe and faynedly vnder a colour or pretêce of holynes, that is to saye when a man prayeth not frõ the bothum of his hart but with the lyppes only and from the tethe outward, and that in opyn places where great resort of people is, bycause they wold be sene. But thy gospel boke teacheth the to praye contynually, but so that thy prayer come from the bothu of the hart.
Poli. Yea but yet for all my sayenge I praye sumtyme.
Can. When I beseche the when ye art a slepe?
Poli. When it cometh in to my mynde, ones or twyse may chaunce in a weke.
Can. what prayer sayst thou?
Poliphe. The lordes prayer, the Pater noster.
Canni. Howe many tymes ouer?
Poli. Onis, & I trowe it is often inoughe, for the gospell forbyddeth often repetynge of one thynge.
Canni. Can ye saye your pater noster through to an ende & haue youre mynde runnynge vpon nothynge elles in all that whyle?
Poli. By my trouthe and ye wyll beleue me I neuer yet assayed nor proued whether I coulde do it or no. But is it not sufficient to saye it with my mouthe?
Can. I can not tell whether it be or no. But I am sure god here vs not excepte we praye from the bothum of our harte. But tell me another thyng I wyll aske the. Doest thou not fast very often?
Poli. No neuer in all my lyfe tyme and yf it were not for lacke of meate.
Can. And yet thy boke alowes and commendes hyghly bothe fastynge and prayer.
Polip. So coulde I alowe them but that my belly can not well affare nor a way with fastyng.
Canni9. Yea but Paule sayth they are not the seruauntes of Iesus Christe whiche serue theyr belly & make it theyr god. Do you eate fleshe euery day?
Po. No neuer when I haue none to eate, but I neuer refuse it when it is set before me, and I neuer aske question not for cõscience but for my belly sake.
Can. Yea but these stronge sturdy sydes of suche a chuffe and a lobbynge lobye as thou arte wolde be fed well inoughe with haye and barke of trees.
Poliphe. Yea but chryste sayd, that which entereth in at the mouthe defyleth not the man.
Canni. That is to be vnderstand thus yf it be measurably taken, and without the offendinge of our christian brother. But Paule the disciple of chryst had rather peryshe & sterue with hunger then onys to offende his weyke brothren wt his eatynge, and he exhorteth vs to followe his example that in all thynges we maye please all men.
Poli. What tel ye me of Paule, Paule is Paule and I am I.
Canni9. Do you gladly helpe to releue the poore and the indygent with your goodes?
Poli. Howe can I helpe them whiche haue nothynge to gyue them, and scant inoughe for my selfe.
Cannius. ye myght spare somthynge to helpe thê with yf thou woldest playe the good husband in lyuynge more warely, in moderatynge thy superfluous expenses, and in fallynge to thy worke lustely.
Poliphem9. Nay then I were a fole in dede, a penyworth of ease is euer worth a peny, and nowe I haue found so moch pleasure in ease that I can not fall to no labour.
Canni. Do you kepe the commaundementes of god?
Polip. Nowe ye appose me, kepe the cõmaundementes quod he, that is a payne in dede.
Cannius. Art thou sory for thy synnes and thyne offences, doest thou ernestly repent the for thê.
Poliphemus. Christ hath payed the raunsome of synne and satisfied for it alredy.
Cannius. Howe prouest thou then that thou louest the gospell and fauoris the word of god as thou bearest men in hande thou doest.
Poliphemus. I wyll tell you that by & by, and I dare saye you wyl confesse no lesse your selfe then that I am an ernest fauorer of the worde then I haue told you ye tale. There was a certayne gray frere of the order of saynt Fraunces wt vs whiche neuer ceased to bable and rayle agaynste the newe testament of Erasmus, I chaunsed to talke with the gêtylman pryuatly where no man was present but he and I, and after I had communed awhyle with hym I caught my frere by the polled pate with my left hande and with my right hãde I drew out my daggar and I pomelled the knaue frere welfauardly aboute his skonce that I made his face as swollen and as puffed as a puddynge.
Canni9. what a tale is this that thou tellest me.
Poliphemus. How say you is not this a good and a sufficient proue that I fauer the gospell. I gaue hym absolucion afore he departed out of my handes wt this newe testament thryse layde vpon his pate as harde as I myght dryue yt I made thre bunches in his heed as bygge as thre egges in the name of the father, the sone, & the holy goost.
Can. Now by my trouth this was well done & lyke a ryght gospeller of these dayes. Truly this is as they saye to dyffende the gospell with the gospell.
Poliphe. I met another graye frere of the same curryshe couent, that knaue neuer had done in raylynge agaynst Erasmus, so sone as I had espyed hym I was styrred and moued with the brenninge zele of the gospell that in thretenyng of him I made hym knele downe vpon his knees and crye Erasmus mercie and desyred me to forgyue hym, I may saye to you it was hyghe tyme for hym to fall downe vpon his marybones, and yf he had not done it by and by I had my halbarde vp redy to haue gyuen hym betwyxt the necke and the heade, I loked as grymme as modie Mars when he is in furyous fume, it is trewe that I tell you, for there was inoughe sawe the frere and me yf I wolde make a lye.
Canni9. I maruayle the frere was not out of his wyt. But to retourne to oure purpose agayne, dost thou lyue chastly?
Poliphemus. Peraduenture I maye do here after when I am more stryken in age. But shall I confesse the trouthe to the?
Canni. I am no preest man, ther fore yf thou wylt be shryuen thou must seke a preest to whome thou maye be lawfully confessed.
Poliphe. I am wont styl to cõfesse my selfe to god, but I wyl confesse thus moche to the at this tyme I am not yet become a perfyte gospeller or an euangelical man, for I am but yet as it were one of ye cõmune people, ye knowe wel perde we gospellers haue iiii. gospels wrytten by the .iiii. euangelystes, & suche gospellers as I am hunt busely, and chefely for .iiii. thynges that we may haue. Unde. to prouyde dayntie fare for the bellie, that nothynge be lackynge to that parte of the body whiche nature hath placed vnder the belly, ye wote what I meane, and to obtayne and procure suche liuinge that we may lyue welthely and at pleasure without carke & care. And fynally that we maye do what we lyst without checke or controlment, yf we gospellars lacke none of all these thynges we crye and synge for ioye, amonge our ful cuppes Io Io we tryumphe and are wonderfull frolycke, we synge and make as mery as cup and can, and saye the gospell is a lyue agayne Chryst rayneth.
Cannius. This is a lyfe for an Epycure or a god belly and for no euangelicall persone that professeth the gospell.
Poli. I denye not but that it is so as ye saye, but ye knowe well that god is omnipotent and can do al thynges, he can turne vs whê his wyll is sodenly in to other maner of men.
Cannius. So can he transforme you in to hogges and swyne, the whiche maye soner be done I iudge thê to chaunge you into good men for ye are halfe swynyshe & hoggyshe alredy, your lyuynge is so beastlie.
