A dialoge or communication of two persons

Desiderius Erasmus

A dialoge or communication of two persons / Deuysyd and set forthe in the late[n] tonge, by the noble and famose clarke. Desiderius Erasmus intituled [the] pylgremage of pure deuotyon. Newly tra[n]slatyd into Englishe

A dialoge

or communication oftwo persons, deuysydand set forthe in the la-tê tonge, by the nobleand famose clarkeDesiderius Erasmusintituled ye pyl-gremage ofpure de-uoty-on
Newly trãslatyd into Englishe

To the reder

Mongest the writinges of all men, dearly belouyd reder, not onely of the diuersyte of tongues, but also the noble drawghts of so artificyall paynted figures, whiche haue so lyuely expressed to ye quycke ymage, the nature, ordre, & proporcyon of all states, as concernynge the gouernaunce of a Christen comêwealthe, that ther is (as I suppose) no parte of the scripture, which is not so enpowndyde, furnysshed, and set forthe, but that euery Christen man, therby may lerne his dewty to god, hys prynce, and hys nebure, and so consequently passe thourough the strayte pathe of the whiche scripture doth testyfye vpõ, very fewe can fynde ye entrye, wherby thorough faythe in the redêptyon of the worlde thorowe ye bloode of Christe the sone of god, to rayne with the father and the holy goste eternally, accordynge to the promyse of Christe, sayinge. In my fathers hawse ther be many placys to dwell in, we wyll come to hym and make a mansyon place with hym and I haue and shall open thy name vnto them, that the same loue with the whiche thou louydest me, may be in theym, and I in thê, and thys is the kyngdome of god so often mouyd to vs in holy scripture, whiche all faythfull shall possesse and inheret for euermore: where as ye vnfaythfull, vnryghtswye, and synner shall not entre in to the kyngdome of god, bycause, of chaûgynge the glory of gode immortall in to the ymage of a corruptyble man, and therfore to incentiously he hathe suffrede them to wandre in theyr clowdes of ygnoraunce, preferrynge the lyes and corrupte iudgmentes of man the veryte and the truthe of god, rather seruynge the creature then the creator, amongest all the parties of the whiche (as was spoken at the begynnyng) thys alwaye not alonely in the newe law, but also in the olde Testament was as a thynge moost abhomynable and displesant in the sight of gode prohybyte and forbyden: but our nature whiche hath in hym, the dampnable repugnaûce of synne agaynst the omnypotêt power of gode, lest euyn frome owre fyrst father Adam, is so enclyned to vyces, amongest the whiche it hath not gyuen the least parte to thys desperate synne of ydolatrye, agaynst the immaculate, and fearefull commandement of god. Thou shalt haue no straunge Gods in my syght, that it is sore to be dreadde the same iudgement to be gyuyn vpon vs that was gyuen vpon the cytye of Ninyue to be absorped of the yerthe in to the yre and vengeannce of gode, whiche hathe ben the cause that so many wryters bothe of late dayes, and many yeres passede, haue euyn to deathe, resisted thes dampnable bolsterers of ydolatrye, gyuen theyr selues to the crosse in example of reformacyon to theyr bretherne, bothe in wrytinge and cownsell, exhortynge the flocke of Christe frome soche prophane doctryne, amongest whome the noble and famouse clerke Desiderius Erasmus hath setforthe to the quycke ymage, before mennys eyes, the supersticyouse worshype and false honor gyuyn to bones, heddes, iawes, armes, stockes, stones, shyrtes, smokes, cotes, cappes, hattes, shoes, mytres, slyppers, sadles, rynges, bedes, gyrdles, bolles, belles, bokes, gloues, ropes, taperes, candelles, bootes, sporres, (my breath was almost past me) with many other soche dampnable allusyones of the deuylle to use theme as goddes contrary to the immaculate scripture of gode, morouer he notethe as it were of arrogancye the pryuate iudgment of certayne that of theyr owne brayne wolde cast out ymages of the temple, with out a comen consent and authoryte, some there be that alway seke halowes, and go vpon pylgramages vnder a pretense of holynes, whervpon thes brotherhoddes and systerhoodes be now inuented, morouer they that haue ben at Hierusalem be called knightes of the sepulcre, and call one an other bretherne, and vpon palme-sondaye they play the foles sadely, drawynge after them an asse in a rope, when they be not moche distante frome the woden asse that they drawe. The same do they conterfayte that haue ben at saynt Iames in Compostella. But they be more pernycyouse, that set forthe vncertayn relyques, for certayne, and attrybute more to them than they oughte to haue, and prostytute or sett theym forthe for fylthye lukre. But now whan they perceyue, that this theyr dãpnable

Corbane dothe decay, and that theyr most to be lamented blyndnes and longe accustomed errours shuld be redressed, they, all fayre bothe of god and man set asyde, rebelle and make insurrectyones contrary to the ordynaunce of gode, agaynst theyr kynge and liege lorde, prouokynge and allurynge the symple comynaitye to theyre dampnable ypocrysye and conspyracy, myndyng and goynge about to preuente our most soueraigne lordes iudgment, not yet gyuê vpon theyr Sodomiticall actes, and most horryble ypocrysy. But the worde of the lorde whiche they so tyrannously go aboute to suppresse wt all the fauerours therof shall ouercome & destroy all soch most to be abhorred & deceyuable inuegelers & dysturbers of ye symple people to soch detestable treason. And that it may so do to the terryble example of thes and a11 other rebelles and most dysloyal subiectes, and to ye greate comforthe & cõsolacyõ of his gracys faythfull and true comens. I requyre him which brethethe where he willithe and raygnethe eternall gode to graût vnto our seyde most dradde soueraygne lorde whose maiesty as it euydently appereth onely applieth his diligence to the aduaunsynge & lettynge forthe of the most holsome documenth and teachyng of almyghty god, to the redres of long accustome euylls and damnable sectes, to the supportacion and mayntenaunce of godly and alowable ceremonyes, to the suppressynge and most to be desired abolishyng of the deuelishe and detestable vsurped aucthoryties, dampnable errours and prophane abuses brought in by that myghty Golias, that obdurated Phareo, that proude Nembroth (whome god amêde) the byshope of Rome, to graunte (I say) vnto hys hyghnes, suche hys godly ayde and assistence, that hys grace with hys moost honorable counsell (agaynst whome this arrogant conspyracy is nowe moued and begonne) may ouercome and debelle the stud traytres as in tymes paste hys maiestye hath prudently do other, that haue hertofore attempted to perpetrate and brynge to passe like sedicyous mishief, and so to establishe the hartes of hys gracys true subiectes that they may wyllyngly and according to theyr dueties, obey and fulfyll hys most lawfull and godly ordened lawes and commaundements wherby they shall not onely do the thyng agreable to goddes wylle and teachynges, in yt he willeth euery soule to be subiected to the hygher power and obedyent to theyr prynce, but also (to theyr greate laude and prayse) shall shewe them selfe to be redy and confirmable to do theyr dueties in aydyng hys excellent hyghnes to the reformacyon of all pernicious abuses & chiefly of detestable ydolatrye, whiche is so muche prohibited in holy scripture and most displeasant to god, for whiche intent and purpose the sayd most noble and famous clarke Desiderius Erasmus, compiled & made this dialoge in Laten, as it foloweth herafter nowe lately translated into our mother the Englishhe tonge. Auoyd therfore, most deare readere, all abuses whereby any inconuenyence may growe, other to the hynderaunce of godes worde, to the displeasure of thy prynce, (whome thou arte so straytly commaunded to obaye, or to the domage of a publike weale, whiche aboue all vices is noted most to be abhorred, not alonely of the most holy wryteres and expownderes of scripture, but also of prophane gentylles, whiche neuer perceyuyd other thinge than nature enclyned theyr hartes vnto, and so consequently to obtayne the fruytion of the godhode thorowe the faythe that was

A tresure boxe of ye Iewes.

spoken of at the begynnynge to thewhiche the lorde Iesus Chri-ste brynge vs all with aperfaycte quyetnes,So be it

A pylgremage, for pure deuocyõ

Enedemus.

What new thynge ys it, that I se? doo I nat see Ogygyus my neybur, whom no mã could espie of all thes sex monthes before? yt was a sayng that he was deed, It is euen he, except that I be ferre deceyuyd. I wyll go to hym, & byd hym good morow. Good morow

Ogygyus. Good morow to you Menedemus.

Signifieth to forsake.

was faynyd of an old kynge of Thebanes.

Mene. I pray you frome what contray do you come to vs ayen so saffe. For here was a great comunicacyõ that you dyd sayle streght to hell.

Ogy. No, thankyd be god, I haue faryd as well syns I went hens, as euer I dyd in all my lyffe.

Me. Well, a man may well perceyue that all soche rumours be but vanytye. But I pray you what araye is this that you be in, me thynke that you be clothyd with cokle schelles, and be ladê on euery syde with bruches of lead and tynne. And you be pretely garnyshyd wt wrethes of strawe & your arme is full of

snakes egges.

Signifyeth bedes. Malsyngam ys callyd parathalassia by cause it is ny to ye see.

Ogy. I haue bene on pylgremage at saynt Iames in Compostella, & at my retourne I dyd more relygyously vysyte our lady of Walsyngã in England, a very holy pylgremage, but I dyd rather vysyte her. For I was ther before within this thre yere.

Me. I trowe, it was but for your pleasure.

Ogy. Nay, it was for pure deuocyon.

Me. I suppose you learnyd that relygyõ of the Grecyanes.

Ogy. My mother in law dyd make a vowe that if her dougther shuld be delyueryd of a man chyld alyue, than that I shuld go to saynt Iames on pylgremage, and ther to salute and thãke hym.

Me. Dyd you salute saynt Iames alonly in your name, and your mothers.

Ogy. No, in the name of all owre house.

Me. Verely I thynke yt your howshold as well shold haue prosperd, in case you had not salutyd hym at all. But I pray you what answer dyd he make to your salutacyon.

Ogy. Nothynge at all. But whã I dyd offre, me tought he dyd lawghe vpon me, and becke at me with hedde, & dyd reche to me this cokleshell.

Me. Wherfore dothe he gyue rather suche schelles, than other thynges.

Ogygy. For the see, whiche is nye vnto hym dothe mynystre plenty of suche.

Me. O holy saynt Iames, that bothe is a mydwyffe to women with chyld, and also dothe helpe his pylgrymes. But I pray you what new kynd of makyng vowes is that that whan a mã is ydle he shall put the burden apon an other mannes bakke? In case that you doo bynd youre selffe with a vowe, that yf ye matter chaunche happyly whiche you haue in hande, that I for you shall fast twyse in on weke, do you beleue yt I can fulfyl youre vow?

Ogy. No, I doo not beleue it if that you dyd vowe it in youre awne name. It is but a sport with yow to mokke sayntes. But this was my mother in law, I must nedys obey her, you know womenes affectyones, & I must obaye heres.

Me. If that you had not perfourmyd your vowe, what iopertye had you be in?

Ogy. I graunt, he could not haue had an accyon ayenst me in ye law, but he myght from hensforthe be deafe to my vowes, orels pryuyly send some calamytye or wretchednes amongste my housholde, yow know well enuffe the maneres of great men.

Me. Tell me now what that same honest mã saynt Iames dothe, and howe he farythe.

Ogy. Moche colder thã he was wontyd to do.

Me. What is the cause of it? His age?

Ogy. Oh you scoffer, yow know wel enoghe that sayntes wax nat olde. But this new learnynge, whiche runnythe all the world ouer now a dayes, dothe cause hym to be vysytyd moche lesse than he was wontyd to be, for if any doo come thay salute him alonly, but they offre lytle or nothinge, and say that theyr monaye may bettre be disposyd amongste pore people.

Me. O a wykyd comunicacyon.

Ogy. Ye & so great an Apostle whiche was wõtyd to stand all in precyous stones & gold, now stãdythe all of wodde hauynge before hym skaresly a wax candle.

Me. If it be trew that I here, it is great ioperdy lest that same chance to all the rest of the sayntes.

Ogy. I thynk it wel, for ther is an epistle abrode whiche our lady dyd wryte apon the same matter.

Me. What lady?

Ogy. She yt hathe her name of a stone.

Our ladi of stone in Raurachia whiche is a certayne cuntre.

Me. I trawe it is in Raurachia.

Ogy. That same is it.

Me. yow tell me of a stony lady, But to whome dyd she wryte?

Ogy. The epistle dothe playnely shew his name.

Me. By whome was it sent?

Ogy. No dowbt but by an angell, whiche dyd lay the wrytynges apõ the aultre, wherof he prechythe to whome it was sent. And lest there shuld be any suspectyõ of crafty cõuayance in you, you shall se the epistle wryten wt his owne hande.

Me. Do you know so well the hand of thangell whiche is secretary to our lady?

Ogy. Yee why nat?

Me. By what argumêt?

Ogy. I haue redde yt

Epithaphe of Bede which was grauyd of the angell: and the letteres agre in all thynges. I haue redde also ye obligacyõ whiche was sent to saynt Gyles as dothe aper. Dothe not thes argumentes proue that mater to be good enoghe.

Is a scripture wryten on a graue.

Me. May a man loke apon them?

Ogy. ye and if you wyll swere to kepe it preuy.

Me. Oh you shall speake to a stone.

Ogy. Ther be stones now a dayes of that name very slawnderous, that wyll hyde nothynge.

Me. you shall speake to a domme man, & yow trust nat a stone.

Ogy. Apon ye condycyon I wyll tell it, loke that you here with bothe youre eyares.

Me. So I doo.

Ogy.

Mary the mother of Iesu to

Glaucoplutus sêdythe gretynge. Insomoche as you folowe Luther, you nobly perswade, that it is but in vayne to call apõ sayntes, do ye well know for that to be grettly in my fauore. For vntyll thys day I haue almost be slayne wt the importunate prayers of men. Of me alone they askyd althynges, as who shuld say my sone were alway a babe, because he is so faynyd and payntyd apõ my breste, that yet he wold be at my commaundemêt and durst nat denye my petycyon, dredynge that if he denye my petycyon, that I shuld denye hym my teate whan he is a thurst: and very oft thay requyre that of me, whiche a shamfast yongman dare scantly aske of a Bawde, yee they be suche thynges as I am ashamyd to put in wrytynge. Now comythe ye marchauntman and he redy to sayle into Spayne for a vantage, dothe cõmytte hys wyues honesty to me. Than commythe thet lytle preaty Nunne and she castythe away her vayle redy to runne away, she leuythe with me the good name of her vyrgynytye, whiche shortly she entendythe to take monay for. Than cryeth the wykyd soudyer purposyd to robbe & saythe, blessyd lady send me a good praye. Now cõmythe the vnthryfty dyasser and cryethe, send me good chance Lady & thow shalt haue parte of my wynnynges: and if the dyasse runne ayenst hym, he blasphemes, and cursythe me, bycause I wyll nat fauor his noghtynes. Now cryeth she that sellythe her selffe for fylthye lukre & saythe, swete lady send me some costomers, & if I denye it, they exclame ayenst me & say, thou arte not the mother of marcy. Moreouer the vowes of some women be no lesse wykyd thã folishe. The mayd cryeth & saythe, O swet Mary send me a fayre and riche husbond. The maryed womã saythe send me goodly chylderen. Now laborythe the woman with chyld, and cryeth dere lady dylyuer me of my bondes. Than cõmythe ye olde wyffe, and saythe flowre of all women send me to lyue longe withowt coghe and drynes. Now crepythe the the dotynge old man & saythe, lady send me for to wax yonge ayê. Thã cõmythe forth the phylosopher and cryethe send me some argumêtis that be îsoluble. The great prest cryeth send me a fat benefyce. Thã saythe the bysshope kepe well my churche. Thã cryethe yehye Iustyce shew me thy sone or I passe out of this worlde. Thã saythe ye Cowrtyer send me trwe confession at the howre of my deathe. The husbondman saythe send vs temperate wether. The mylke wyffe cryethe owt blessyd lady saue our catell. Now if I denye anythynge by & by I am crwell. If I cõmytte it to my sone, I here them say, he wyll what so euer you wyll. Shall I than alone bothe a woman and a mayd helpe maryneres, sawdyeres, marchantmen, dyasseres, maryed mê, women with chyld, iudges, kynges, and husbondmen? ye and this that I haue sayd is the least parte of my payne. But I am nat now so moche trobled with soche busynes, for that I wold hartely thanke you, but that this commodytye dothe brynge a greater discõmodytye with hym. I haue now more ease, but lesse honor & profett. Before this tyme I was callyd quene of heuen, lady of the world, but now any man wyll skarsly say aue Maria or hayle Mary. Before I was clothyd with precyous stones and gold, and had my chaunges, and dayly ther was offeryd gold and precyous stones, now I am skarsly coueryd with halffe a gowne and that is all beeyten with mysse. My yerly rentes be now so smalle yt I am skarsly able to fynde my pore quere kepar to light a wax cãdle before me. Yet all this myght be sufferyd, but you be abowt to pluke away greater thynges, you be abowt (as they say) that what so euer any saynte hathe in any place, to take hyt frome the churches, but take hede what you doo. For ther is no saynte without a way to reuêge his wronge. If you cast saynt Petre forthe of the churche, he may serue you of the same sauce, and shite vp heuyngates ayenst you. ye saynt Paule hathe his sworde. Barthylmew is nat wtowt his great knyffe. Saynt Wyllyam is harnysyd vnder his monkes cloke, nat withowt a greate speare. What canst thou doo ayenst saynt George whiche is bothe a knyght & all armyd with hys longe spere and his fearfull sword? Nor saynt Antony is nat withowt hys weapenes for he hathe holy fyre wt hym. Ye the rest of the sayntes haue theyr weapones or myschefues, whiche they send apon whome they liste. But as for me thou canst not cast owt, except thou cast owt my sone, whiche I hold in myne armes. I wyll nat be seperat frome hym, other thou shalt cast hym owt with me or els thou shalt let vs bothe be, except that you wold haue a temple withowt a Christe. These be the thynges that I wold yow shall know ymagyne you therfore what shal be your answer. For this thinge pleasythe me very well. Frome oure stony churche the calendes of Auguste, the yere frome my sonnes passyon a M. CCCCC. xiiii. I stony lady subscrybyd thys with myne owne hande.

The epistle of our Lady.

Glaucoplut9 desirus of ryches.

Me. Trewly that was a soro and fearfull epistle, I suppose that Glaucoplutus wyll beware frõ hêsforthe.

Ogy. Ye & if he be wyse.

Me. Wherfore dyd nat that good saynt Iames wryte to yt man of the same mater.

Ogy. I can nat tell, except it be bycause he is so ferre of, and now a dayes men be moche searchyd for suche maters, & in theyr iornaye theyr lettres takê frome them.

Me. I pray you, what god dyd send you into Englõd?

Ogy. I saw the wynd maruelouse prosperouse thyderward, and I had almoste promysyd this to that blessyd lady of Walsyngã that I wold seke her within .ii. yere,

Me. What wold you axe of her.

Ogy. No new thyngs at all, but suche as be comen, as to kepe saffe and sownd my housholde, to encreasse my goodes, and in thys world to haue a lõge and mery liffe, and whã I dye euerlastynge lyffe in another worlde.

Me. May nat owr lady grante the same at home with vs? She hathe at Antwarpe a moche more lordly temple thã at Walsyngame.

Ogy. I denye nat but it may be so, but in dyuers places she grantes dyuers thynges, wether it be her pleasur so to do, or bycause she is so gentle, that as cõcernynge this purpose, she wyll gyue her selfe to our affectyões.

Me. I haue harde oft of saynt Iames, but I pray you describe to me the kyngdome of Walsyngam.

Ogy. Verely I shall tell you as shortly as I canne. Yt is the most holy name in all England, and you may fynde some in that yle, that suppose thayr substãce shal nat prospayre except they vysyte her with thayr offerynge euery yere ones as thay be able to gyue.

Me. Wher dothe she dwell?

Ogy. At the vttermost parte of all England betwyxt the Northe and the Weste, nat vary ferre from the see, skarsly iii myles, the towne is almost susteynyd by the resort of pylgrymes. The college is of Canões, but thay be suche as hathe thayr name of the Laten tonge and be called Seculares, a kynd betwyxte monkes & Chanones.

Me. What you tell me of

Amphybyanes, suche as ye mõstre

Fyber is.

Amphybyanes be thynges doutfull.

Fyber is a beste of ye see & ye land.

Ogy. No thay be rather suche as the

Cocatrice. But withowt dissimulation, I shall put you owt of this dowte in thre wordes. To them that thay hate, thay be Chanones, and to them that thay loue thay be Monkes

A Cocatrice wil kyll a man with a loke.