The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Vol. 1 (of 9)

I had a good deal of conversation with him, also, on the situation of affairs between England and the United States; and particularly on their refusal to deliver up our posts. I observed to him that the obstructions thrown in the way of the recovery of their debts were the effect, and not the cause, as they pretended, of their refusal to deliver up the posts; that the merchants interested in these debts, showed a great disposition to make arrangements with us; that the article of time we could certainly have settled, and probably that of the interest during the war; but that the minister, showing no disposition to have these matters arranged, I thought it a sufficient proof that this was not the true cause of their retaining the posts. He concurred as to the justice of our requiring time for the payment of our debts; said nothing which showed a difference of opinion as to the article of interest, and seemed to believe fully that their object was to divert the channel of the fur trade, before they delivered up the posts, and expressed a strong sense of the importance of that commerce to us. I told him I really could not foresee what would be the event of this detention; that the situation of the British funds, and the desire of their minister to begin to reduce the national debt, seemed to indicate that they could not wish a war. He thought so, but that neither were we in a condition to go to war. I told him I was yet uninformed what Congress proposed to do on this subject, but that we should certainly always count on the good offices of France, and I was sure that the offer of them would suffice to induce Great Britain to do us justice. He said that surely we might always count on the friendship of France. I added, that by the treaty of alliance, she was bound to guarantee our limits to us, as they should be established at the moment of peace. He said they were so, "mais qu'il nous etoit necessaire de les constater." I told him there was no question what our boundaries were; that the English themselves admitted they were clear beyond all question. I feared, however, to press this any further, lest a reciprocal question should be put to me, and therefore diverted the conversation to another object.

This is a sketch only of a conference which was long. I have endeavored to give the substance, and sometimes the expressions, where they were material. I supposed it would be agreeable to Congress to have it communicated to them, in the present undecided state in which these subjects are. I should add, that an explanation of the transaction of Monsieur de Massiac with the Algerines, before hinted at, will be found in the enclosed letter from the Count d'Estaing to me, wherein he gives also his own opinion. The whole is submitted to Congress, as I conceive it my duty to furnish them with whatever information I can gather, which may throw any light on the subjects depending before them.

I have the honor to be, with the most perfect esteem and respect, Sir, your most obedient, and most humble servant.

TO COUNT DE VERGENNES. 117

Paris, May 31, 1786.

Sir,—I have been honored with your Excellency's letter of yesterday, enclosing a copy of the Resolutions of the Committee on the subject of tobacco, and am bound to make my acknowledgments for this attention to the commerce between this country and the United States, which will, I hope, by this measure, be kept alive till more simple and permanent arrangements become practicable. I have communicated it to Congress by an opportunity which offered this morning. Perhaps it is for the want of information that I apprehend it possible for the London merchants, availing themselves of their early notice of this regulation, and their proximity to the port of France, to run in French vessels the whole 15,000 hogsheads of the first year, before the French or American merchants can possibly bring them from America. This might defeat the end of the regulation, as those merchants would take payment in cash and not in merchandise. I suppose the Committee had in view Tobaccos coming last from a port of the United States, and that it may not be yet too late to restrain the orders to such only. Of this your Excellency is the best judge, to whom I have the honor of submitting the doubt; and am, with sentiments of the most profound respect and esteem, your Excellency's most obedient and most humble servant.

TO M. LA MORLIENE

Paris, June 3, 1786.

Sir,—It is six years since the paper money of New England has ceased to circulate as money. It is considered at present as making a part of the national debt, and that the holders of it will be entitled to receive from the public as much gold or silver as the paper money could have brought at the time it was received by the holder, with an interest of 6 per cent. per annum. But, as yet, no precise arrangements have been taken for the payment either of principal or interest. Most of the subjects of France, having paper money, have deposited it in the hands of the French Minister or Council at New York, that payment may be demanded whenever it shall be provided by Congress. There are even speculators in America who will purchase it. But they give much less than its worth. As for myself I do not deal in it. I am, Sir, your very humble servant.

TO MESSRS. BUCHANAN AND HAY

Paris, June 15, 1786.

Gentlemen,—The model of the Capitol being at length finished, I have sent it down the Seine to Havre, it being necessary that it should go by water. I have not collected the accounts, but shall soon do it, and forward them to you; they will be less than I had expected. I shall pray you to account for their amount to the Governor and Council, as I have with them an account into which it will be easier for me to transfer the article. I enclose directions for opening the boxes in which the model is, and I shall put two copies of those directions under other covers to you in hopes some one of them may reach you with or before the model. I have the honor to be with much esteem, Gentlemen, your most obedient and humble servant.

TO LA FAYETTE

Paris, June 15, 1786.

Dear Sir,—Monsieur Farrin called on me on the subject of making Honfleur a free port, and wished me to solicit it. I told him it was for our interest, as for that also of all the world, that every port of France, and of every other country, should be free: that therefore we would wish Honfleur to be made so: that if the matter was in agitation, the Count de Vergennes would probably speak of it to me, in which case I should tell him with candor what I thought of it, but that I could not solicit it, as I had no instructions to do so. So far I said to him. I did not add, what I may safely do to you, that the measures proposed being more for the interest of France than of the United States, there is no reason for our desiring its adoption to be placed on the ground of favor to us; and again, that those who have had and who may yet have occasion to ask great favors, should never ask small ones. I have, therefore, thought it better that the United States should not be engaged in this negotiation. If the government, for its own interest, will make the port free, I shall be glad of it; but do not wish it enough to ask it. If you should be of a different opinion, I should be glad to converse with you on the subject. I write without reserve, knowing that you will be pleased with it; and that your zeal for our interest will induce you to do what is for the best. I am, my dear Sir, yours affectionately.

TO MR. CARMICHAEL

Paris, June 20, 1786.

Dear Sir,—My last to you was of the 5th of May, by Baron Waltersdorff. Since that I have been honored with yours of April the 13th, and May the 16th and 18th. The present covers letters to Mr. Lambe and Mr. Randall, informing them that the demands of Algiers for the ransom of our prisoners and also for peace are so infinitely beyond our instructions, that we must refer the matter back to Congress, and therefore praying them to come on immediately. I will beg the favor of you to forward these letters. The whole of this business, therefore, is suspended till we receive further orders, except as to Mr. Barclay's mission. Your bills have been received and honored. The first, naming expressly a letter of advice, and none coming, it was refused till the receipt of your letter to me, in which you mentioned that you had drawn two bills. I immediately informed Mr. Grand, who thereupon honored the bill.

I have received no public letters of late date. Through other channels, I have collected some articles of information, which may be acceptable to you.

In a letter of March the 20th, from Dr. Franklin to me, is this passage: "As to public affairs, the Congress has not been able to assemble more than seven or eight States during the whole winter, so the treaty with Prussia remains still unratified, though there is no doubt of its being done soon, as a full Congress is expected next month. The disposition to furnish Congress with ample powers augments daily, as people become more enlightened. And I do not remember ever to have seen, during my long life, more signs of public felicity than appear at present throughout these States; the cultivators of the earth, who make the bulk of our nation, have made good crops, which are paid for at high prices, with ready money; the artisans too, receive high wages; and the value of all real estates is augmented greatly. Merchants and shopkeepers, indeed, complain that there is not business enough. But this is evidently not owing to the fewness of buyers, but to the too great number of sellers; for the consumption of goods was never greater, as appears by the dress, furniture, and manner of living, of all ranks of the people." His health is good, except as to the stone, which does not grow worse. I thank you for your attention to my request about the books, which Mr. Barclay writes me he has forwarded from Cadiz. I have the honor to be with great respect, dear Sir, your most obedient humble servant.

TO MR. LAMBE

Paris, June 20, 1786.

Sir,—Having communicated to Mr. Adams the information received at different times, from yourself, from Mr. Randall and Mr. Carmichael, we find that the sum likely to be demanded by Algiers for the ransom of our prisoners, as well as for peace, is so infinitely beyond our powers, and the expectations of Congress, that it has become our duty to refer the whole matter back to them. Whether they will choose to buy a peace, to force one, or to do nothing, will rest in their pleasure. But that they may have all the information possible to guide them in their deliberations, we think it important that you should return to them. No time will be lost by this, and perhaps time may be gained. It is, therefore, our joint desire, that you repair immediately to New York, for the purpose of giving to Congress all the information on this subject which your journey has enabled you to acquire. You will consider this request as coming from Mr. Adams as well as myself, as it is by express authority from him that I join him in it. I am of opinion it will be better for you to come to Marseilles and by Paris; because there is a possibility that fresh orders to us, from Congress, might render it useful that we, also, should have received from you all possible information on this subject. And, perhaps, no time may be lost by this, as it might be long before you would get a passage from Alicant to America.

I am, Sir, your most obedient, and most humble servant.

TO MR. JAY

Paris, July 8, 1786

Sir,—My letters to you by the last French packet were dated May 12, 22, 23, 27, 27, and I sent, by the way of London, one dated May 21. Since this, I have been honored with yours of May the 5th. The letter therein enclosed for Mr. Dumas has been duly forwarded; and the report on the subject of the Consular convention I delivered to Count de Vergennes the first levee day after the return of the King, who was gone to Cherbourg at the time of my receiving it. Mr. Randall, being so far on his return, and meaning to go by the way of London, where his stay will be short, he will be the bearer of this letter, with which I have an opportunity of enclosing the last letters I have received from Mr. Barclay and Mr. Lambe. Mr. Barclay left Cadiz soon after the date of his letter. I wrote to Mr. Lambe on the 20th of June, with the concurrence of Mr. Adams, to repair to Congress with all possible despatch, recommending, but not enjoining, his coming by the way of Versailles and Paris, supposing it possible that the information he might communicate might be usefully applied by Mr. Adams and myself in the execution of the commands of Congress. I afterwards wrote him another letter, desiring expressly that if this route was likely to retard much his attendance on Congress, he would take such other as would be shortest. At the desire of Monsieur Houdon, I have the honor to enclose to you his propositions for making the equestrian statue of General Washington. In the autumn of the last year, I received letters from an American master of a ship of the name of Asquith, informing me that he had had a most disastrous passage across the Atlantic, that they had put into Brest then in such distress that they were obliged to make the first port possible, that they had been immediately seized by the officers of the Farmers General, their vessel and her lading seized, and that themselves were then in jail suffering from every want. Letters by every post gave me to believe their distress was very real. As all their cash was soon exhausted, and the winter setting in very severely, I desired a merchant in Brest to furnish them a livre a day a piece. It was sometime before I could ascertain the nature of the proceedings against them. It proved at length to be a prosecution as for endeavoring to introduce tobacco in contraband. I was induced to order this allowance from evidence that the men, six in number, must inevitably perish if left to the pittance allowed by the Farmers General to their prisoners, and from a hope that the matter would soon be decided. I was led on by this delusive hope from week to week, and month to month, and it proved to be ten months before they were discharged. I applied early to Count de Vergennes, and was informed by him that the matter being in a regular course of law, there could be no interference, and that if the sentence should be against them I might expect a remission of so much of it as should depend on the King. They were condemned to forfeit their vessel and cargo, to a fine, and to the gallies. The fine and condemnation to the gallies were remitted immediately by the King, but the forfeiture of vessel and cargo being for the benefit of the Farmers, he could not remit that. They were also to pay the expenses of their prosecution, and to remain in jail till they did it. So that, upon the whole, I was obliged to advance for them 2620l. 2s., being somewhat upwards of 100 guineas; for which I informed Asquith, from the beginning, he must consider himself as answerable to the United States. I accordingly enclose the account showing the purposes for which the money was paid, and his own original acknowledgment that it was for his use. I own I am uncertain whether I have done right in this; but I am persuaded some of them would have perished without this advance; I therefore thought it one of those cases where citizens, being under unexpected calamity, have a right to call for the patronage of the public servants. All the disinterested testimony I have been able to get has been in favor of the innocence of these men. Count de Vergennes, however, believed them guilty; and I was assured the depositions regularly taken were much against them. I enclose herewith the state of their case as it appeared to me in the beginning, and as I communicated it by letter to the minister.

Having been lately desired by the Swedish Ambassador here, to state to him what I thought the best measure for rendering the island of St. Bartholomew useful to the commerce of Sweden and the United States, I did it in a letter of which I enclose a copy. My view in doing it is, that if any farther or better measure should occur to Congress, on its being communicated to me, I can still suggest it to the Ambassador, probably before any final decision.

It being material that the reduction of the duties on whale oil, which would expire with the close of this year, should be revised in time for the whalemen to take measures in consequence, we have applied for a continuance of the reduction, and even for an abolition of all duties. The committee, of the creation of which I informed you in my letter of May 27, and of which the M. de La Fayette is a member, were in favor of the abolition. But there is little prospect, perhaps none at all, of obtaining confirmation of their sentence. I have no doubt of the continuance of the abatement of the duties on the footing stated in that letter. The term of three years will probably be adopted. The gazettes of Leyden and of France, from the former to the present date, accompany this. I have the honor to be, with sentiments of the most perfect esteem and respect, Sir, your most obedient humble servant.

TO MR. ADAMS

Paris, July 9, 1786.

Dear Sir,—I wrote you last on the 23d of May. Your favor of that date did not come to hand till the 19th of June. In consequence of it I wrote the next day letters to Mr. Lambe and Mr. Randall, copies of which I have now the honor to enclose you. In these, you will perceive I had desired Mr. Randall, who was supposed to be at Madrid, to return immediately to Paris and London, and to Mr. Lambe, supposed at Alicant, I recommended the route of Marseilles and Paris, expecting that no direct passage could be had from Alicant to America, and meaning, on his arrival here, to advise him to proceed by the way of London, that you also might have an opportunity of deriving from him all the information he could give. On the 2d of July, Mr. Randall arrived here, and delivered me a letter from Mr. Lambe, dated May the 20th, of which I enclose you a copy, as well as of another of June the 5th, which had come to hand some time before. Copies of these I have also sent to Mr. Jay. Yours of the 29th of June, by Dr. Bancroft, and enclosing a draught of a joint letter to Mr. Lambe, came to hand on the 5th instant. I immediately signed and forwarded it, as it left him more at liberty as to his route than mine had done. Mr. Randall will deliver you the present and supply the informations heretofore received. I think with you that Congress must begin by getting money. When they have this, it is a matter of calculation whether they will buy a peace, or force one, or do nothing. I am also to acknowledge the receipt of your favors of June 6, 25 and 26. The case of Grosse shall be attended to. I am not certain, however, whether my appearing in it may not do him harm by giving the captors a hope that our government will redeem their citizens. I have, therefore, taken measures to find them out and sound them. If nothing can be done privately, I will endeavor to interest this government.

Have you no news yet of the treaty with Portugal? does it hang with that court? My letters from New York of the 11th of May inform me that there were then eleven States present, and that they should ratify the Prussian treaty immediately. As the time for the exchange of ratifications is drawing to a close, tell me what is to be done, and how this exchange is to be made. We may as well have this settled between us before the arrival of the ratification, that no time may be lost after that. I learn through the Marechal de Castries that he has information of New York's having ceded the impost in the form desired by Congress, so as to close this business. Corrections in the acts of Maryland, Pennsylvania, &c., will come of course. We have taken up again the subject of whale oil, that they may know in time in America what is to be done in it. I fear we shall not obtain any farther abatement of duties; but the last abatement will be continued for three years. The whole duties payable here are nearly one hundred and two livres on the English ton, which is an atom more than four guineas, according to the present exchange. The monopoly of the purchase of tobacco for this country, which had been obtained by Robert Morris, had thrown the commerce of that article in agonies. He had been able to reduce the price in America from 40 to 22l. lawful the hundred weight, and all other merchants being deprived of that medium of remittance, the commerce between American and that country, so far as it depended on that article, which was very capitally too, was absolutely ceasing. An order has been obtained, obliging the Farmers General to purchase from such other merchants as shall offer fifteen thousand hogsheads of tobacco at thirty-four, thirty-six and thirty-eight livres the hundred, according to the quality, and to grant to the sellers in other respects the same terms as they had granted to Robert Morris. As this agreement with Morris is the basis of this order, I send you some copies of it, which I will thank you to give to any American (not British) merchants in London who may be in that line. Seeing the year this contract has subsided, Virginia and Maryland have lost £400,000 by the reduction of the price of their tobacco.

I am meditating what step to take to provoke a letter from Mrs. Adams, from whom my files inform me I have not received one these hundred years. In the meantime, present my affectionate respects to her, and be assured of the friendship and esteem with which I have the honor to be, Sir, your most obedient, and most humble servant.

TO COLONEL MONROE

Paris, July 9, 1786.

Dear Sir,—I wrote you last on the 10th of May; since which your favor of May the 11th has come to hand. The political world enjoys great quiet here. The King of Prussia is still living, but like the snuff of a candle, which sometimes seems out, and then blazes up again. Some think that his death will not produce any immediate effect in Europe. His kingdom, like a machine, will go on for some time with the winding up he has given it. The King's visit to Cherbourg has made a great sensation in England and here. It proves to the world, that it is a serious object to this country, and that the King commits himself for the accomplishment of it. Indeed, so many cones have been sunk, that no doubt remains of the practicability of it. It will contain, as is said, eighty ships of the line, be one of the best harbors in the world, and by means of two entrances, on different sides, will admit vessels to come in and go out with every wind. The effect of this, in another war with England, defies calculation. Having no news to communicate, I will recur to the subjects of your letter of May the 11th.

With respect to the new States, were the question to stand simply in this form, How may the ultramontane territory be disposed of, so as to produce the greatest and most immediate benefit to the inhabitants of the maritime States of the Union? the plan would be more plausible, of laying it off into two or three States only. Even on this view, however, there would still be something to be said against it, which might render it at least doubtful. But that is a question which good faith forbids us to receive into discussion. This requires us to state the question in its just form, How may the territories of the Union be disposed of, so as to produce the greatest degree of happiness to their inhabitants? With respect to the maritime States, little or nothing remains to be done. With respect, then, to the ultramontane States, will their inhabitants be happiest, divided into States of thirty-thousand square miles, not quite as large as Pennsylvania, or into States of one hundred and sixty thousand square miles, each, that is to say, three times as large as Virginia within the Alleghany? They will not only be happier in States of moderate size, but it is the only way in which they can exist as a regular society. Considering the American character in general, that of those people particularly, and the energetic nature of our governments, a State of such extent as one hundred and sixty thousand square miles, would soon crumble into little ones. These are the circumstances which reduce the Indians to such small societies. They would produce an effect on our people, similar to this. They would not be broken into such small pieces, because they are more habituated to subordination, and value more a government of regular law. But you would surely reverse the nature of things, in making small States on the ocean, and large ones beyond the mountains. If we could, in our consciences, say, that great States beyond the mountains will make the people happiest, we must still ask, whether they will be contented to be laid off into large States? They certainly will not; and, if they decide to divide themselves, we are not able to restrain them. They will end by separating from our confederacy, and becoming its enemies. We had better, then, look forward, and see what will be the probable course of things. This will surely be a division of that country into States of a small, or, at most, of a moderate size. If we lay them off into such, they will acquiesce; and we shall have the advantage of arranging them, so as to produce the best combinations of interest. What Congress have already done in this matter is an argument the more in favor of the revolt of those States against a different arrangement, and of their acquiescence under a continuance of that. Upon this plan, we treat them as fellow citizens; they will have a just share in their own government; they will love us, and pride themselves in an union with us. Upon the other, we treat them as subjects; we govern them, and not they themselves; they will abhor us as masters, and break off from us in defiance. I confess to you, that I can see no other turn that these two plans would take. But I respect your opinion, and your knowledge of the country too much, to be ever confident in my own.