Notes and Queries, Number 71, March 8, 1851

Edmond W.

Haybands in Seals.—I have, in a small collection of Sussex deeds, two which present the following peculiarity: they have the usual slip of parchment and lump of wax pendant from the lower edge, but the wax, instead of bearing an armorial figure, a merchant's mark, or any other of the numerous devices formerly employed in the authentication of deeds instead of one's chirograph, has neatly inserted into it a small wreath composed of two or three stalks of grass (or rather hay) carefully plaited, and forming a circle somewhat less in diameter than a shilling. The deeds, which were executed in the time of Henry the Seventh, relate to the transfer of small landed properties. I have no doubt that this diminutive hayband was the distinctive mark of a grazier or husbandman who did not consider his social status sufficient to warrant the use of a more regular device by way of seal. I have seen a few others connected with the same county, and, if I recollect rightly, of a somewhat earlier date. I shall be glad to ascertain whether this curious practice was in use in other parts of England.

M. A. Lower.

Lewes.

Edmund Prideaux, and the First Post-office.—Polwhele, in his History of Cornwall, says, p. 139.:

"To our countryman Edmund Prideaux we owe the regular establishment of the Post-office."

He says again, p. 144.:

"Edmund Prideaux, Attorney-General to Oliver Cromwell, and Inventor of the Post-office."

Now the Edmund spoken of as Attorney-General, was of Ford Abbey, in Devonshire, and second son of Sir Edmund Prideaux, of Netherton, in the said county, therefore could not be one of the Cornish branch.

Query No. 1. Who was the Edmund Prideaux, his countryman, that regularly established the Post-office?

Query No. 2. How were letters circulated before his time?

Query No. 3. Was Edmund Prideaux the Attorney-General, the inventor of the Post-office, as he states; if not, who was?

Query No. 4. Has any life of Edmund Prideaux as Attorney-General been published, or is any account of him to be found in any work?

G. P. P.

William Tell Legend.—Could any of your readers tell me the true origin of the William Tell apple story? I find the same story told of—

(1.) Egil, the father of the famous smith Wayland, who was instructed in the art of forging metals by two dwarfs of the mountain of Kallova. (Depping, Mém. de la Société des Antiquaires de France, tom. v. pp. 223. 229.)

(2.) Saxo Grammaticus, who wrote nearly a century before Tell, tells nearly the same story of one Toko, who killed Harold.

(3.) "There was a souldier called Pumher, who, daily through witchcraft, killed three of his enemies. This was he who shot at a pennie on his son's head, and made ready another arrow to have slain the Duke Remgrave (? Rheingraf), who commanded it." (Reginald Scot, 1584.)

(4.) And Adam Bell, Clym of the Clough, and William of Cloudeslie.

G. H. R.

Arms of Cottons buried in Landwade Church, &c. (Vol. iii., p. 39.).—Will Jonathan Oldbuck, Jun., oblige me by describing the family coat-armour borne by the Cottons mentioned in his Note? It may facilitate his inquiry, in which, by the way, I am much interested.

R. W. C.

Sir George Buc's Treatise on the Stage.—What has become of this MS.? Sir George Buc mentions it in The Third University of England, appended to Stowe's Annals, ed. 1631, p. 1082.—

"Of this art [the dramatic] have written largely Petrus Victorius, &c.—as it were in vaine for me to say anything of the art; besides, that I have written thereof a particular treatise."

If this manuscript could be discovered, it would doubtless throw considerable light upon the Elizabethan drama.

Edward F. Rimbault.

A Cracowe Pike (Vol. iii., p. 118.).—Since I sent you the Query respecting a Cracowe Pike, I have found that I was wrong in supposing it to be a weapon or spear: for Cracowe Pikes was the name given to the preposterous "piked shoes," which were fashionable in the reign of Richard II., and which were so long in the toes that it was necessary to tie them with chains to the knee, in order to render it possible for the wearer to walk. Stowe, in his Chronicle, tells us that this extravagant fashion was brought in by Anne of Bohemia, Queen of Richard II. But why were they called Cracowe pikes?

I. H. T.

St. Thomas of Trunnions.—Who was this saint, and why is he frequently mentioned in connexion with onions?

"Nay softe, my maisters, by Saincte Thomas of Trunions,I am not disposed to buy of your onions." Apius and Virginia, 1575."And you that delight in trulls and minions,Come buy my four ropes of hard S. Thomas's onions." The Hog hath lost his Pearl, 1614.

"Buy my rope of onions—white St. Thomas's onions," was one of the cries of London in the seventeenth century.

Edward F. Rimbault.

Paper-mill near Stevenage (Vol. ii., p. 473.).—In your number for December 14, 1850, one of your correspondents, referring to Bartholomeus de Prop. Rerum, mentions a paper-mill near Stevenage, in the county of Hertford, as being probably the earliest, or one of the earliest, established in England. I should feel much obliged if your correspondent, through the medium of your pages, would favour me with any further particulars on this subject; especially as to the site of this mill, there being no stream within some miles of Stevenage capable of turning a mill. I have been unable to find any account of this mill in either of the county histories.

Hertfordiensis.

Mounds, Munts, Mounts.—In the parish register of Maresfield in Sussex, there is an entry recording the surrender of a house and three acres of land, called the "Mounds," in 1574, to the use of the parish; and in the churchwardens' accounts at Rye, about the same time, it is stated that the church of Rye was entitled to a rent from certain lands called "Mounts." In Jevington, too, there are lands belonging to the Earl of Liverpool called Munts or Mounts, but whether at any time belonging to the church, I am unable to say. Any information as to the meaning of the word, or account of its occurring elsewhere, will much oblige

R. W. B.

Church Chests.—A representation of two knights engaged in combat is sometimes found on ancient church chests. Can any one explain the meaning of it? Examples occur at Harty Chapel, Kent, and Burgate, Suffolk. The former is mentioned in the Glossary of Architecture, and described as a carving: the latter is painted only, and one of the knights is effaced: the other is apparently being unhorsed; he wears a jupon embroidered in red, and the camail, &c., of the time of Richard II.: a small shield is held in his left hand: his horse stoops its head, apparently to water, through which it is slowly pacing. Is this a subject from the legend of some saint, or from one of the popular romances of the middle ages? Are any other examples known?

C. R. M.

The Cross-bill.—Is "The Legend of the Cross-bill," translated from Julius Mosen by Longfellow, a genuine early tradition, or only a fiction of the poet?

2. Is the Cross-bill considered in any country as a sacred bird? and was it ever so used in architectural decoration, illumination, or any other works of sacred art?

3. What is the earliest record on evidence of the Cross-bill being known in England?

H. G. T.

Launceston.

Iovanni Volpe.—Can any of your readers supply a notice of Iovanni Volpe, mentioned in a MS. nearly cotemporary to have been

"An Italian doctor, famous in Queen Elizabeth's time, who went with George Earl of Cumberland most of his sea voyages, and was with him at the taking of Portorico?"

Another MS., apparently of the date of James I., describes him as "physician to Queen Elizabeth."

He had a daughter, Frances, widow of Richard Evers, Esq. ("of the family of Evers of Coventry"), who married, 2d November, 1601, Richard Hughes, Esq., then a younger son, but eventually representative, of the ancient house of Gwerclas and Cymmer-yn-Edeirnion, in Merionethshire, and died 29th June, 1636.

M. N. O.

Auriga.—How comes the Latin word Auriga to mean "a charioteer?"

Varro.

To speak in Lutestring.—1. Philo-Junius—that is, Junius himself—in the 47th Letter, writes:

"I was led to trouble you with these observations by a passage which, to speak in lutestring, I met with this morning, in the course of my reading."

Had the expression in Italics been used before by any one?

2. In the 56th Letter, addressed to the Duke of Grafton, Junius asks:

"Is the union of Blifil and Black George no longer a romance?"

What part of that story is here referred to?

Varro.

"Lavora, come se tu," &c.—In Bohn's edition of Jeremy Taylor's Holy Living and Dying, I observe in the notes several Italian sentences, mostly couplets or proverbs. One peculiarly struck me: and I should feel obliged if any of your readers could tell me whence it was taken, name of author, &c. The couplet runs thus (Vide p. 182. of the work):—

"Lavora, come se tu avessi a camper ogni hora:Adora, come se tu avessi a morir allora."

Indeed it would not be amiss, if all the notes were marked with authors' names or other reference, as I find some few of the Latin quotations as well as the Greek, and all the Italian ones, require a godfather.

W. H. P.

Tomb of Chaucer.—Are any of the existing English families descended from the poet Chaucer? If so, might they not fairly be applied to for a contribution to the proposed restoration of his tomb? His son Thomas Chaucer left an heiress, married to De la Pole, Duke of Suffolk; but I have not the means of ascertaining whether any of their posterity are extant.

C. R. M.

Family of Clench.—Can any of your readers supply me with the parentage and family of Bruin Clench of St. Martin's in the Fields, citizen of London? He married Catharine, daughter of William Hippesley, Esq., of Throughley, in Edburton, co. Sussex; and was living in 1686. His christian name does not appear in the pedigrees of the Clinche or Clench family of Bealings and Holbrook, co. Suffolk, in the Heralds' Visitations, in the British Museum. His daughter married Roger Donne, Esq., of Ludham, co. Norfolk, and was the maternal grandmother of the poet Cowper.

C. R. M.

Replies

CRANMER'S DESCENDANTS

(Vol. iii., p. 8.)

Your correspondent may be interested to know, that Sir Anthony Chester, Bart., of Chichley, co. Bucks, married, May 21, 1657, Mary, dau. of Samuel Cranmer, Esq., alderman of London, and sister to Sir Cæsar Cranmer, Kt., of Ashwell, Bucks. This Samuel Cranmer was traditionally the last male heir of the eldest of Cranmer's sons; his descent is, I believe, stated in general terms in the epitaphs of Lady Chester, at Chichley, and Sir Cæsar Cranmer, at Ashwell. He was a great London brewer by trade, and married his cousin Mary (sister of Thomas Wood, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, and Sir Henry Wood, Bart., of the Board of Green Cloth), dau. of Thomas Wood, Esq., of Hackney, by his wife – Cranmer. They had only two children, and it would appear from Harleian MS. No. 1476. fo. 419., which omits all mention of Sir Cæsar, that he died in his father's lifetime, and that Lady Chester was sole heiress to this branch of the Cranmers.

There are two brief pedigrees I have seen of these Cranmers, one in Harl. MS. 1476. above mentioned, the other in Philipot's Catalogue of Knights; but neither of them goes so far as to connect them with the archbishop, or even with the Nottinghamshire family; for they both begin with Samuel Cranmer's grandfather, who is described of Alcester, co. Warwick. Now the connexion is certain: could one of your readers supply me with the wanting links? Is it possible that they omit all mention of the archbishop on account of the prejudice mentioned by your correspondent; being able to supply the three generations necessary to gentility without him?

I am obliged to write without any books of reference, or I would have consulted the epitaphs in question again.

R. E. W.

I am afraid that my quotations from memory, in my letter of Saturday, were not exactly correct; for on examining Lipscomb's Buckinghamshire to-day, I find that it is stated (vol. iv. pp. 4-7.) on the monument of Samuel Cranmer at Astwood Bury, that he was "descended in a direct line from Richard Cranmer, elder brother to Thomas, archbishop of Canterbury;" and that it was found, on an inquisition held on April 7, 1640, that his son and heir Cæsar Cranmer (called on the monument "Sir Cæsar Wood Ate Cranmer, Kt.") was his heir at six years of age. This Cæsar was knighted by Charles II., and died unmarried; so that his sister, Lady Chester, was evidently the representative of this branch of the Cranmer family.

Now, with regard to this statement on the monument, in the first place it is discrepant with Lady Chester's epitaph at Chichley, which (Lipscomb's Bucks, vol. iv. p. 97.) expressly declares that she derived her descent from the archbishop. In the next place it appears from Thoroton's Notts, that the archbishop had no elder brother named Richard. His elder brother's name was John; who by Joan, dau. of John Frechevill, Esq., had two sons, Thomas and Richard. Could this be the Richard alluded to? In the third place, in neither of the pedigrees alluded to is there given any connexion with the family of Cranmer of Aslacton. And, lastly, it is opposed to the uniform tradition of the family. Now, if any of your readers can clear up this difficulty, or will refer me to any other pedigree of the Cranmers, I shall feel extremely obliged to him.

With the exception of the points now noticed, my former letter was perfectly correct, and may be relied on in every respect.

I may mention that these Cranmers were from Warwickshire. The monument states that Samuel Cranmer was born at "Aulcester" in that county, "about the year 1575."

R. E. W.

DUTCH POPULAR SONG-BOOK

(Vol. iii., p. 22.)

The second edition of the song-book mentioned by the Hermit of Holyport must have been published between 1781 and 1810, as the many popular works printed for S. and W. Koene may testify. In 1798 they lived on the Linde gracht, but shifted afterwards their dwelling-place to the Boomstraat. For the above information—about a trifle, interesting enough to call a hermit from his memento-mori cogitations—I am indebted to the kindness of Mr. J. J. Nieuwenhuyzen.

But, alas! what can I, the man with a borrowed name and borrowed learning, say in reply to the first Query of the busy anchorite? He will believe me, when I tell his reverence that I am not Janus Dousa. What's in the name, that I could choose it? Must I confess? A token of grateful remembrance; the only means of making myself known to a British friend of my youth, but for whom I would perhaps never have enjoyed Mr. Hermit's valuable contributions—the medium, in short, of being recognised incognito. Will this do? Or must I say, copying a generous correspondent of "Notes and Queries,"—Spare my blushes, I am

J. H. van Lennep.

Amsterdam, Feb. 25. 1851.

BARONS OF HUGH LUPUS

(Vol. iii., p. 87.)

Your correspondent P. asks for information respecting the families and descendants of William Malbank and Bigod de Loges, two of the Barons of Hugh Lupus, Earl of Chester, whose signatures are affixed to the charter of foundation of St. Werburgh's Abbey at Chester.

Of the descendants of William Malbank I can learn nothing; but it appears from the MS. catalogue of the Norman nobility before the Conquest, that Roger and Robert de Loges possessed lordships in the district of Coutances in Normandy. One at least, Roger, must have accompanied the Conqueror to England (and his name appears in the roll of Battle Abbey as given by Fox), for we find that he held lands in Horley and Burstowe in Surrey. His widow, Gunuld de Loges, held the manor of Guiting in Gloucestershire of King William; and in the year 1090 she gave two hides of land to the monastery of Gloucester to pray for the soul of her husband. Roger had two sons, Roger and Bigod, or, as he is sometimes called, Robert. The former inherited the lands in Surrey. One of his descendants (probably his great-grandson) was high sheriff of Surrey and Sussex in the years 1267, 1268, and 1269. His son Roger de Loges owned lands and tenements in Horley, called La Bokland, which he sold to the Abbot of Chertsea. His successor, John de Logge of Burstowe, witnessed in the tenth year of Edward II. a deed relating to the transfer of land in Hadresham, Surrey. The name became gradually corrupted to Lodge.

To return to the subject of inquiry, Bigod de Loges—

"held five tenements in Sow of the Earl of Chester, by the service of conducting the said earl towards the king's court through the midst of the forest of Cannock, meeting him at Rotford bridge upon his coming, and at Hopwas bridge on his return. In which forest the earl might, if he pleased, kill a deer at his coming, and another at his going back: giving unto Loges each time he should so attend him a barbed arrow. Hugo de Loges granted to William Bagot all his lands in Sow, to hold of him the said Hugo and his heirs, by the payment of a pair of white gloves at the feast of St. Michael yearly."—Dugdale.

Bigod de Loges had two sons, Hugo and Odardus:

"Odardus de Loges was infeoffed by Ranulphus de Meschines, Earl of Chester, in the baronies of Stanyton, Wigton, Doudryt, Waverton, Blencoyd, and Kirkbride, in the county of Cumberland; and the said Odardus built Wigton church and endowed it. He lived until King John's time. Henry I. confirmed the grant of the barony to him, by which it is probable that he lived a hundred years. He had issue Adam. Adam had issue Odard, the lord, whose son and heir, Adam the Second, died without issue, and Odard the Fourth likewise," &c.—Denton's MS.

Of the branch settled in Staffordshire and Warwickshire—

"Hugo de Loges married, tempo Richard I., Margerie, daughter and heiress of Robert de Brok. By this marriage Hugo became possessed of the manor of Casterton in Warwickshire. He was forester of Cannock chace. He had issue Hugo de Loges, of Chesterton, whose son and heir, Sir Richard de Loges, died 21st of Edward I. Sir Richard had issue two sons, Richard and Hugo. The eldest, Richard of Chesterton, left issue an only daughter, Elizabeth, married to Nicholas de Warwick. The issue of this marriage was John de Warwick, whose daughter and heiress, Eleonora, married Sir John de Peto, and brought the manor of Chesterton into that family."—Dugdale.

M. J. T.

SHAKSPEARE'S "ANTONY AND CLEOPATRA."

(Vol. iii., p. 139.)

The scene in Antony and Cleopatra contains two expressions which are in Henry VIII.—

"Learn this, Silius.""Learn this, brother."—Hen. VIII."The Captain's captain.""To be her Mistress' mistress, the Queen's queen."—Hen. VIII.

The first of these passages is in a scene in Henry VIII., which Mr. Hickson gives to Fletcher (and of which, by-the-bye, it may be observed, that, like the scene in Antony and Cleopatra, it has nothing to do with the business of the play). The other is in a scene which he gives to Shakspeare.

But, perhaps, there may be doubts whether rightly. I am exceedingly ignorant in Fletcher; but here is a form of expression which occurs twice in the scene, which, I believe, is more conformable to the practice of Fletcher:—

"A heed was in his countenance.""And force them with a constancy."

There is very great stiffness in the versification: one instance is quite extraordinary:

"Yet I know her forA spleeny Lutheran; and not wholesome toOur cause, that she should lie i' the bosom ofOur hard rul'd king."

There is great stiffness and tameness in the matter in many places.

Lastly, what Mr. Hickson hopes he has taken off Shakspeare's shoulders, the compliments to the Queen and the King, is brought in here most forcedly:—

"She (i.e. A. Boleyn) is a gallant creature, and completeIn mind and feature. I persuade me, from herWill fall some blessings to this land, which shallIn it be memoriz'd."

But there is also the general question, whether, either upon à priori probability, or inferences derived from particular passages, we are bound to suppose that the two authors wrote scene by scene. Shakspeare might surely be allowed to touch up scenes, of which the mass might be written by Fletcher.

As to the dates, Mr. Collier is persuaded that Henry VIII. was written in the winter of 1603-4. The accession of James was in March, 1603. Mr. Collier thinks that the compliments to Queen Elizabeth were not written in her lifetime. He thinks that, even in the last year of her long reign, no one would have ventured to call her an "aged princess," though merely as a way of saying that she would have a long reign; and he says, there is not the slightest evidence that the compliment to King James was an interpolation. But surely it is strong evidence that if there is no interpolation, this passage—

"As whenThe bird of wonder dies, the maiden phœnix,"

afterwards—

"When Heav'n shall call her from this cloud of darkness,"

and then, after disposing of the King—

"She shall be to the happiness of EnglandAn aged princess       .       .       .      .       .       .       .       .       .Would I had known no more—but she must die;She must—the saints must have her yet a virgin," &c.

would be ridiculous. All that can be said is, that either way it is partly ridiculous to make it a matter of prophecy and lamentation that a human being must, sometime or other, die.

But it is very difficult to conceive that the compliments to Elizabeth should have been written after her death.

Fletcher, born in 1579, did not, in Mr. Dyce's opinion, bring out anything singly or jointly with Beaumont till 1606 or 1607.

The irrelevant scenes, like that of Ventidius, are introduced with two objects—one to gain time, the other for the sake of naturalness: of the latter of which there are two instances in Macbeth; one where the King talks of the swallows' nests: the other, relating to the English king touching for the evil, seems remarkably suited to the mind of Shakspeare.

C. B.

"SUN, STAND THOU STILL UPON GIBEON!"

(JOSH. x. 12.)(Vol. iii., p. 137.)

The observations of I. K. upon this passage have obviously proceeded from a praiseworthy wish to remove what has appeared to some minds to be inconsistent with that perfect truth which they expect to be the result of divine inspiration. I. K. doubtless believes that God put it into the heart of Joshua to utter a command for the miraculous continuance of daylight. But why should he expect the inspiration to extend so far as to instruct Joshua respecting the manner in which that continuance was to be brought about? Joshua was not to be the worker of the miracle. It was to be wrought by Him who can as easily stop any part of the stupendous machinery of His universe, as we can stop the wheels of a watch. Joshua was left to speak, as he naturally would, in terms well fitted to make those around him understand, and tell others, that the sun and moon, whom the defeated people notoriously worshipped, were so far from being able to protect their worshippers, that they were made to promote their destruction at the bidding of Joshua, whom God had commissioned to be the scourge of idolaters. And when the inspired recorder of the miracle wrote that "the sun stood still," he told what the eyes saw, with the same truth as I might say that the sun rose before seven this morning. Inspiration was not bestowed to make men wise in astronomy, but wise unto salvation.

Those who think that the inspired penman should have said "the earth stood still," in order to give a perfectly true account of the miracle, have need to be told, or would do well to remember, that the stopping of the diurnal revolution of the earth, in order to keep the sun and moon's apparent places the same, would not involve a cessation of its motion in its orbit, still less a cessation of that great movement of the whole solar system, by which it is now more than conjectured that the sun, the moon, and the earth are all carried on together at the rate of above 3700 miles in an hour; so that to say "the earth stood still" would be liable to the same objection, viz., that of not being astronomically true. I. K. carries his notion of the "inseparable connexion" of the sun "with all planetary motion" too far, when he supposes that a stoppage of the sun's motion round its own axis would have any effect on our planet. The note he quotes from Kitto's Pictorial Bible is anything but satisfactory; and that from Mant is childishly common-place. Good old Scott adverts with propriety to the Creator's power to keep all things in their places, when the earth's revolution was stopped; but when he endeavoured to illustrate it by the little effect of a ship's casting anchor when under full sail, he should have consulted his friend Newton, who would have stopped such an imagination. Another commentator, Holden, has argued, in spite of the Hebrew, that "in the midst of heaven" cannot mean mid-day, having made up his mind that the moon can never be seen at that hour!